K-100 the AWACS killer

[Teknetinium]

Does any Russian hardware (SAM/EW/AWAC) even have any type of datalink network that's capable of the handing target data to the missiles guidance computer?.

 

 

 

 

The R-77 trades huge amounts of its potential energy for high alpha. I think from a logical point of view that the combat unproven R-77 is good in the short to meduim range of it's WEZ. In the long run I highly suspect the lattice fins of creating large amounts of drag.

 

How can you compare a combat proven missile against an unproven missile?, What makes you think that the AIM-120 needs to be "seriously modified especially in terms of maneuverability to be competitive?". Posts that are primarily indiscriminate comments and technological verbal attacks by fanbois on proven hardware are just plain stoopid. 35 International countries use the AMRAAM as their primary MRAAM!. Yes that's right 35 countries!. They can't all be wrong.

 

 

when u say Russian missiles are not combat proven. U are talking politics.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BovL4UcNC5k

Edited March 3, 2009 by Teknetinium

[Groove]

Teknetinium, he talks about a R-77 and you about a R-73.

[nscode]

The R-77 trades huge amounts of its potential energy for high alpha

 

It can trade its E for huge alpha. It doesn't have to, and doesn't do it unless it's needed. Others simply can't (go as far alpha).

[Vault]

It can trade its E for huge alpha. It doesn't have to, and doesn't do it unless it's needed. Others simply can't (go as far alpha).

 

That's just Semantics, High alpha requires high energy. In the transonic mach area the R-77 lattice surface area and leading edge of the lattice fin creates a "choked flow" effect which creates alot of drag, the lattice fin also generates a shockwave through the internal areas of the lattice. The R-77 is optimal at high and low mach numbers. If you ever come across a book written by Eugene Fleeman called "tactical missile design" pick it up and turn to page 40. Eugene Fleeman was a missile design engineer for the US for 36 years. He goes into great depth about the pros and cons of lattice contol surfaces.

 

In the 80's the US and Germany done in depth tests on the effects of lattice fins, German engineers decided against using lattice fins on the IRIS-T which is a HOB HIGH AOA SRIRM and the US has only used the Lattice fin on the MOAB. The US are currently testing lattice fins for the JDAM.

[Force_Feedback]

What about all those Soviet ICBMs that use lattice fins? And that missile launched torpedo? Lattice fins are certainly useful for those missiles...

 

The Russians are already designing the follow-up to the R-77 and R-73 family, so if there will be a new R-77 variant, it certainly would not be used by them.

The IRIS-T uses TVC for initial manouvering, so wether it would have lattice fins, or no fins at all, it will still turn due to the working engine. The R-77 has the advantage to do high alpha at the beginning and the end of the trajectory, so, when a medium (or visual) range target pops up, it will have a high off-bore capability due to the draggy fins. Also remember that missile guidance logic is not the same as in lock-on, there are various attack algorythms, written to preserve kinetic energy, or use it all up for that last turn.

Combine that with the 'Gramps', the R-27ER and you can keep the enemy defensive until he reaches close enough for the R-77. Oh well, if India/Pakistan will cause some upstir, we will have some solida data on that.

 

Still, the R-77 is obsolete by now, liquid (gel) propellants allow for throttleable rocket engines, that may be the future. Time will tell.

[Vault]

What about all those Soviet ICBMs that use lattice fins? And that missile launched torpedo? Lattice fins are certainly useful for those missiles...

 

The IRIS-T uses TVC for initial manouvering, so wether it would have lattice fins, or no fins at all, it will still turn due to the working engine. The R-77 has the advantage to do high alpha at the beginning and the end of the trajectory, so, when a medium (or visual) range target pops up, it will have a high off-bore capability due to the draggy fins.

 

ICBM's benefit from lattice fins because they are travelling at a high mach. The MOAB benefits from lattice fins because it travels at a low mach number. TVC compliments control fins it does not replace them without control surfaces any missile would be unstable in flight that why the IRIS-T has control fins and TVC. The R-77 trades high alpha for the disadvantage of spending most of it's trajectory time in a state of high drag. The range of the R-77 also decreases alot quicker than convetional control surface when vectoring.

[Groove]

What about all those Soviet ICBMs that use lattice fins?

Which ICBMs use lattice fins?

 

For which phase?

[Vault]

The picture above explains the effects of the Lattice control surface at various mach. Even at high and low mach numbers where the R-77 is optimal it suffers from shockwaves within the lattice this creates drag.

 

The picture below shows the overall performance of various missiles over it's trajectory. The ASRAAM is more efficient over its WEZ in terms of RCS and drag/range when compared to the R-77. The R-77 trades drag, distance and RCS for superiour control. Even though the R-77 has more range on paper than the AMRAAM the AMRAAM is alot more efficient in the higher end of it WEZ than the R-77 which is very important in BVR engagements. Weight, propellant, missile diameter and nose length play an important factor in a missiles performance.

 

Edited March 3, 2009 by Vault

[Vault]

Which ICBMs use lattice fins?

 

For which phase?

 

AFAIK most Russian ICBM's use Lattice control surfaces.

[Groove]

AFAIK most Russian ICBM's use Lattice control surfaces.

 

You will agree with me that this dont answer my questions about which one and for which stage :)

[Vault]

You will agree with me that this dont answer my questions about which one and for which stage :)

 

Yes I do agree with you sorry I could of been a bit more helpful. AFAIK Most Russian ICBM's use lattice fins for control so take your pick http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/icbm/index.html TBH I'm not sure how many stages sport the lattice fins.

 

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/icbm/rt-2pm.htm

 

Edited March 3, 2009 by Vault

[Groove]

Thanks for that. It seems like they are used on the first stage which actually makes the greatest sense.