7900xtx & Pico 4 Expected Framerates and Times

[Mikaris]

Hi all,

Long time DCSer and newbie to VR

I've built a new pc with a 7900xtx and 7800x3d, and have a few questions

Below is a screenshot of the results I get sitting at the main menu using the pico 4 streaming assistant and virtual desktop tethered. This is using the multithreaded version of dcs also.
 

  

Is this similar to what others are getting? I understand the 7900xtx has some teething issues with VR at the moment, but this is even using the supposed vr fix driver they released a few days ago, see below also

 

Here is a screenshot of virtual desktop tethered in the f18 in the quick start gauntlet mission, the headroom I is due to a framerate target set at 72fps using openxr and quickly disappears once I start to look around etc.

And a pic of my current settings

It's making me wonder whether it was a waste purchasing this card, or if there's anything I can do. Something just doesnt seem right.

Summary

Is a laggy experience normal and what others are experiencing with the 7900xtx in DCS?

Is a >15,20ms game render time and >10,15 transmit time normal?

I've just realised that I should drop the bitrate from 150 down to something like 100 perhaps to decrease the decode time on the pico, but it doesn't explain the massive render times

Essentially, anyone else running similar specs at the moment, what are your settings?

Any help would be so greatly appreciated, part of the reason I built this pc was specifically to play DCS , and now that my trackir got lost when moving, without forking out more money for another and since I would prefer, I'd like to get VR to work

Any other information required please let me know

 

Thanks all

Mika

Edited July 1, 2023 by Mikaris

[Annapolis81]

Do you get these views even after using the centering function in DCS?

[nikoel]

9 hours ago, Mikaris said:

Hi all,

Long time DCSer and newbie to VR

I've built a new pc with a 7900xtx and 7800x3d, and have a few questions

Below is a screenshot of the results I get sitting at the main menu using the pico 4 streaming assistant and virtual desktop tethered. This is using the multithreaded version of dcs also.
 

  

Is this similar to what others are getting? I understand the 7900xtx has some teething issues with VR at the moment, but this is even using the supposed vr fix driver they released a few days ago, see below also

 

Here is a screenshot of virtual desktop tethered in the f18 in the quick start gauntlet mission, the headroom I is due to a framerate target set at 72fps using openxr and quickly disappears once I start to look around etc.

And a pic of my current settings

It's making me wonder whether it was a waste purchasing this card, or if there's anything I can do. Something just doesnt seem right.

Summary

Is a laggy experience normal and what others are experiencing with the 7900xtx in DCS?

Is a >15,20ms game render time and >10,15 transmit time normal?

I've just realised that I should drop the bitrate from 150 down to something like 100 perhaps to decrease the decode time on the pico, but it doesn't explain the massive render times

Essentially, anyone else running similar specs at the moment, what are your settings?

Any help would be so greatly appreciated, part of the reason I built this pc was specifically to play DCS , and now that my trackir got lost when moving, without forking out more money for another and since I would prefer, I'd like to get VR to work

Any other information required please let me know

 

Thanks all

Mika

 

Condolences on the 7900XTX. The multi dye architecture has had a rough start in VR, previous generation AMD cards are unfortunately somehow better than the current gen but I digress - the new beta drivers are out that are supposed to fix some VR performance issues. I no longer have an AMD Card (and mine was the 6900XT) but if you search for them you will find them. In the release notes you should see fixes, and somewhere there "VR Performance is now in line with expectations" or the like

[TED]

I have the 6900xt which works great in vr. Despite some of the negative reviews online about 7900xtx, I've ordered one anyway and will get it next week and start testing. I'm fairly confident there is tuning and tweaking that can be done to get this card to work well. The same was true for the 6900.

Just confirm u r using MR and openxr?

[Qcumber]

The latencies on VD look OK except in the first image but your decoding latency is a bit high. You might need to drop your bitrate. Have you tried using h264+? How are you connecting your headset? 

What is it like if you reduce to Ultra setting? Make sure that pixel density is 1 in DCS, steam VR is set to 100% scaling, and you have no other scaling set using other software such as openxr toolkit. 

 

[TED]

If u r using openxr then make sure u set PD to 1.0 in dcs then just adjust resolution up amd down in openxr toolkit. 

I'm running all maxed on dcs now with 115% and I lock the fps to 47 in adrenaline. Everything super smooth and steady. If I unlock fps and turn off chill I get between 60-70 fps low level in f18 caucuses but it much more jittery as fps hops up and down. For me the key is to keep rock solid fps. Work out what your stable fps is and lock it there so it rarely goes below. To be honest at 45fps constantly it's plenty for a really clear smooth experience. That allows me to bump up everything else in the settings with now all shadows on, and everything at max except msaa. 

[Mikaris]

7 hours ago, Annapolis81 said:

Do you get these views even after using the centering function in DCS?

 

Yes, before I center in DCS with my PICO and VD, I'm sat about 1-2 metres above the screen for some reason. Only happens on startup and never have to do it again for as long as DCS is open though so not too worried. Are you having similar issues Annapolis?

 

7 hours ago, nikoel said:

Condolences on the 7900XTX. The multi dye architecture has had a rough start in VR, previous generation AMD cards are unfortunately somehow better than the current gen but I digress - the new beta drivers are out that are supposed to fix some VR performance issues. I no longer have an AMD Card (and mine was the 6900XT) but if you search for them you will find them. In the release notes you should see fixes, and somewhere there "VR Performance is now in line with expectations" or the like

Yeah, thanks, it's been pretty rough. Yeah I'm using the latest driver associated with that post. I believe it did help a bit to be honest. Been a rollercoaster though Thanks nikoel

2 hours ago, TED said:

I have the 6900xt which works great in vr. Despite some of the negative reviews online about 7900xtx, I've ordered one anyway and will get it next week and start testing. I'm fairly confident there is tuning and tweaking that can be done to get this card to work well. The same was true for the 6900.

Just confirm u r using MR and openxr?

As far as I know I'm using it... I mean, in the VD performance overlay it says steamVR but I'm able to use the openXR overlay that you see with the fps counter. I've got the arguments in the DCS shortcut --force_enable_VR --force_OpenXR

I hope and think I am, but to be honest I'm not entirely sure.

2 hours ago, Qcumber said:

The latencies on VD look OK except in the first image but your decoding latency is a bit high. You might need to drop your bitrate. Have you tried using h264+? How are you connecting your headset? 

What is it like if you reduce to Ultra setting? Make sure that pixel density is 1 in DCS, steam VR is set to 100% scaling, and you have no other scaling set using other software such as openxr toolkit. 

 

Yeah, I just realised that my bitrate is at 150, not sure why considering I normally run it at 100 or so. Have changed that and it's definitely better, but not as good as I was expecting. SteamVR was set to 250% for some reason? probably because that's the setting that VD sets using godlike maybe? I'll give it a shot changing it to 100%, thanks Qcumber

7 minutes ago, TED said:

If u r using openxr then make sure u set PD to 1.0 in dcs then just adjust resolution up amd down in openxr toolkit. 

I'm running all maxed on dcs now with 115% and I lock the fps to 47 in adrenaline. Everything super smooth and steady. If I unlock fps and turn off chill I get between 60-70 fps low level in f18 caucuses but it much more jittery as fps hops up and down. For me the key is to keep rock solid fps. Work out what your stable fps is and lock it there so it rarely goes below. To be honest at 45fps constantly it's plenty for a really clear smooth experience. That allows me to bump up everything else in the settings with now all shadows on, and everything at max except msaa. 

Ok I'll keep the PD at 1 in DCS (pretty sure that's where it's at right now as I haven't touched it). Good idea locking the fps in adrenaline instead of openXR, will give that a shot. Thanks Ted

[TED]

If u can lock your fps to either your refresh rate of the headset or half the refresh rate you may get a much smoother experience. Experiment a bit with settings and resolution to get a solid fps first at either of these and see how u get on. 

I'm not too familiar with the pico but I think u r using 120hz or 72hz if I'm correct. Set fps to these and try. For example if u r using 120hz lock fps to 60.

Edited July 2, 2023 by TED

[VitS]

Pico 4 is suboptimal in DCS. I have 4090 and also have all sorts of troubles when using VD. Even though I get stable 90 fps it still "feels" jittery. I also have this problem that after dcs loads im sitting 2 meters above menu.

It only happens in DCS btw. Squadrons, ED work exceptionally good. 

[Qcumber]

7 hours ago, VitS said:

Pico 4 is suboptimal in DCS

It is for me too. I presumed it was because my PC spec is too low. It works great in IL-2. I have switched back to my rift s for DCS. I'll try again when I upgrade my GPU. 

[TED]

Two more things that occurred to me that may make a significant difference for you.

First- check you Internet. Make sure you have a fast connection. My recommendation would be set up a fast WiFi 6 mesh network with one node close to you PC and connect your PC with an ethernet cable to that node. These are pretty cheap and will significantly improve your dcs stability and your vr stability. I recently installed one and saw an immediate boost in my general dcs play.

Second - check the latest amd adrenaline preview driver for June. If you Google it u should find it and I think there was a thread on the vr forum here already. I downloaded and installed today and saw a good improvement with my 6900xt. I have a 7900xtx inbound tomorrow so I'm getting ready. I suspect these may bring down the latency times, then if u lock fps in adrenaline you will see smooth flying. As i said before I'm using 47fps in adrenaline chill for the g2 but it may be different for the pico. Experiment a bit and start by using integers of the refresh rate. 

[Miles Vorkosigan]

EDIT February 2024: VD has since upgraded to using an OpenXR runtime (VDXR), use this runtime instead. It works great. 

I know this is an older thread but I do want to chime in for those who look for tips later. 

I am using a Pico 4 with DCS and it is great. I do have a 4090 so of course that helps but even with my office desktop (3090) it looks great. 
I connect the Pico with a USB-C to Ethernet adapter, and Virtual Desktop. The ethernet cable goes to a switch where my PC is also plugged in. I use a 30w USB charger for pass through charging, I have played for six hours without completely discharging the battery in the Pico (brought it down to 35% I think). 

The key to getting great visuals and smooth game-play in the Pico is to disable "Virtual Desktop Streamer (Quest)" in SteamVR Settings-Startup/Shutdown-Manage Add-ons. The Pico will then load DCS using the Oculus runtime instead of SteamVR. No need for OpenXR, it just runs very well. A buddy also has the Pico running on a 7900XT GPU and gets excellent framerate and smooth gameplay. 

When I first started to use the Pico (upgraded from a Reverb G2...yes it is an upgrade) I had horrible lag spikes. I attributed it to the Pico, Virtual Desktop, etc. After exhausting all methods of fixing the issue I chose the Nuclear Option (Should be dramatic music in the background) I upgraded from Windows 10 to Windows 11 (I meant to do that anyway) using a clean install and format of my C:\ drive. The lag spikes were gone. It was something in Windows causing the issue. Too many people blame the Pico 4 for bad VR (I almost did), but it works freaking great. 

If I remember, I will post a screenshot showing my Pico performance overlay. I am on my desktop right now, the simpit is in the basement. 

EDIT: Better yet and more to the point of this thread; here is a screenshot from my buddy who is using a 7900XT:

null

Edited February 6 by Miles Vorkosigan

[Mikaris]

Hey @Miles Vorkosigan, 

Thanks for commenting! Your comment is an exciting glimmer of hope for me now looking to get back into DCS and figure out this VR thing.

I've disabled "Virtual Desktop Streamer (Quest)" in SteamVR Settings-Startup/Shutdown-Manage Add-ons, however I'm not sure how to force the oculus runtime as my DCS shortcut had these arguments "--force_enable_VR --force_OpenXR" , that's how I could get it to run in VR.

Do you know which arguments I should be putting (or that your friend puts), as since disabling the setting you mentioned DCS no longer opens in VR with steamVR anymore.

EDIT: I figured out I can launch DCS by right clicking the VD icon in the bottom right of my desktop and launching the game from there, and it uses the oculus runtime  

Problem now is when I'm using the multithreaded version of DCS with the oculus runtime, I get constant flickering alternating in both eyes, even at the main menu. After forcing SSW active it makes the flickering mostly go away but it's still quite laggy looking around with black bars in my periphery with latency 40-50ms at the main menu. The single threaded version of DCS seems to be better but still not what I would expect, definitely not the smooth VR experience you're describing. Have you encountered this before?

This could be caused by my less-than-optimal wireless vr setup at the moment. I've got a dedicated router arriving today from amazon and I'll also try going wired with USB C tethering or maybe a usb c ethernet adapter like you. Could you give me an example of one of these pass through chargers that I can also use the ethernet with?

Perhaps I'll also update to windows 11 lol.
 

[Qcumber]

15 hours ago, Mikaris said:

Problem now is when I'm using the multithreaded version of DCS with the oculus runtime, I get constant flickering alternating in both eyes, even at the main menu.

Try running VD using the VDXR option. You will get better performance. 

[Miles Vorkosigan]

On 2/5/2024 at 6:45 AM, Mikaris said:

 

EDIT: I figured out I can launch DCS by right clicking the VD icon in the bottom right of my desktop and launching the game from there, and it uses the oculus runtime  

 

Since VD upgraded to OpenXR (VDXR) I have been using that. It works excellent. Set the Windows VD app to use VDXR as the runtime and launch the game as you mentioned above. 

[Mikaris]

14 hours ago, Qcumber said:

Try running VD using the VDXR option. You will get better performance. 

 

4 hours ago, Miles Vorkosigan said:

Since VD upgraded to OpenXR (VDXR) I have been using that. It works excellent. Set the Windows VD app to use VDXR as the runtime and launch the game as you mentioned above. 

Thanks so much guys, switched to VDXR and it does seem to be better.
Two questions for the both of you if you have the time;
Do you also have a 7900xtx?
Are you running wireless, wired via USB, or adapted to ethernet, and what are your VD settings and latencies?

Thanks very much as always

 

[Miles Vorkosigan]

See my initial post, the information is all there. 

[Qcumber]

2 hours ago, Mikaris said:

Do you also have a 7900xtx?

No. I use a 4070. 

2 hours ago, Mikaris said:

Are you running wireless, wired via USB, or adapted to ethernet, and what are your VD settings and latencies?

I have used most options and it depends on your setup. With a Pico 4 I found VD with usb-ethernet connection was most reliable. With a Quest Pro I use oculus-link-cable as I can get a higher bitrate (960 mbps) and the image looks a bit better than VD (150 or 400). In an ideal world we would have VD with a high bitrate cable option. 

In terms of VD settings I use Godlike and HEVC 10 bit at 150 Mbps. The biggest latency issues with VD are:

• Game latency, which can only be resolved by changing game settings.
• Networking latency, which directly relates to a decent network. As long as you can maintain a network latency of 1200 Mbps (or above 866) then you should be able to keep this latency low. 
• Decoding latency, which can be balanced by reducing the bitrate. 

If you use ASW/SSW then you can be less worried about the game latency as this is going to be high. Try to balance this by reducing the decoding latency. 

I hope this helps. 

[TED]

On 2/6/2024 at 6:39 PM, Mikaris said:

 

Thanks so much guys, switched to VDXR and it does seem to be better.
Two questions for the both of you if you have the time;
Do you also have a 7900xtx?
Are you running wireless, wired via USB, or adapted to ethernet, and what are your VD settings and latencies?

Thanks very much as always

 

I'm using wifi with a dedicated router next to my PC, which my pcnis connected to via ethernet cable. I then connect pico to the same Internet via WiFi. 

With amd I found hvec not to work well andnuse h264+ with bitrate at 400 mbps. 

I disabled openxr toolkit and run pico är 72fps and cap fps in dcs to 75. 

All dcs settings High or max. Msaa x2. Depending on mission u may or may not want to reduce shadows.