Vikhr

[CE_Mikemonster]

Correct terms used, read this!

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/29-559.aspx

 

Maverick disappointed the Israelis when they used it for AT as it completely vaporized the tanks, they aimed beside it to disable them and pick them up for their own use.

[EtherealN]

There's no kill like Overkill. :D

[CE_Mikemonster]

I can't really get my head around the phrasing 'disappointed'

[EtherealN]

I can see it. Israeli ground commander calls in an airstrike on some advancing tanks, gleeful that he'll soon have some more armor to attach to his division. Airstrike comes in and... there is nothing left. Not a bolt.

 

That's how you turn an israeli commander to drink, I think. :P

[therion_prime]

What I don't understand is: If a single Vikhr cannot destroy an Abrams, why would a second one ..... except it hits EXACTLY the same spot as the first one. Very unlikely.

 

Do the tanks in game have a "healthbar" ?

[Dusty Rhodes]

And what is that suppose to mean? As it is able to penetrate 900mm of steel Vikhr can kill any tank (including those with explosive reactive armor). So the Leclerc is no exception especially as it is not the best armored tank.

 

Sorry, was trying to be funny yet serious. It is the Challenger that I meant, not the Leclerc, and there is a glitch with AI firing Vihkr at the Challenger II. Already reported. Never mind me. Carry On.

[GGTharos]

This is the new Maverick warhead - the older HEAT warhead was 57lbs.

 

The new one is not HEAT, IIRC, but pen-frag. It serves not only as a tank-killer, but as a bunker-buster and building-busting munition.

 

The weight of the warheads are interesting:

 

Vikhr 8 kg tandem HEAT (?)

Hellfire2 9 kg tandem HEAT

Trigat-LR 9 kg tandem HEAT

HOT3 6,6 kg tandem HEAT

 

Maverick 136 kg tandem HEAT with fuze delay :shocking:

 

So its obvious that the developers think this weights are enough to kill or badly damage a modern tank.

[GGTharos]

As you know, there are no 'damage effects' for AI objects, or at least, ground objects. In short, you can't destroy their sensors, weapons, etc, etc. You just have live or destroyed.

 

The second vikhr simulates having done enough damage to render the tank reasonably mission killed. Destruction in the sim doesn't necessarily reflect a realistic, can-still-go-to-depot-and-repair damage - it reflects an 'out of the battle' status.

 

What I don't understand is: If a single Vikhr cannot destroy an Abrams, why would a second one ..... except it hits EXACTLY the same spot as the first one. Very unlikely.

 

Do the tanks in game have a "healthbar" ?

[815TooCooL]

What I don't understand is: If a single Vikhr cannot destroy an Abrams, why would a second one ..... except it hits EXACTLY the same spot as the first one. Very unlikely.

 

Do the tanks in game have a "healthbar" ?

 

Cause I won't play this game if I never be able to destroy enemy MBTs.

Think it this way, there are no compromises in BS.

No RWR, impractical countermeasure, and no advanced night equipment etc.

But we have one big exception.

We can kill Abrams by field-mod-warhead and I like it. :D

 

The second vikhr simulates having done enough damage to render the tank reasonably mission killed. Destruction in the sim doesn't necessarily reflect a realistic, can-still-go-to-depot-and-repair damage - it reflects an 'out of the battle' status.

And this is what I totally agree.

Edited February 26, 2009 by =815=TooCooL

[GGTharos]

If you can't kill it with a frontal shot, you should start maneuvering for a flank attack ;)

[Kenan]

I pretty much doubt any Abraams crew would continue their operation after a single (direct) Vikhr hit, regardless of the damage. That's the whole purpose of the missile. Remmember the liveleak videoclip of burning M1A1 after being hit by a measely RPG and bloodied crew getting out and seeking medical attention?

 

Now, compare a RPG rocket with a Vikhr...

 

BTW, one Merkava tank was completely blown to pieces by an RPG after being hit from behind into the back door (used for troops to enter the tank). The warhead pierced thru the door and exploded inside the tank. There was almost nothing left of it and the nearby buildings were riddled by shrapnels of the destroyed tank.

[GGTharos]

Kenan .. one out of how many M1's that were hit by RPG ;)

[Kenan]

Kenan .. one out of how many M1's that were hit by RPG ;)

 

Of course but do you think any of them would continue operating inside the tank after a direct Vikhr hit to the turret (let alone tracks or back)?

 

I believe Vikhr packs a bit more punch then an RPG.:D

[GGTharos]

Yeah I do. Like I've mentioned before - there was a tank that took several KE rounds to the face. If the vikhr doesn't disable the tank in some way (kill crew, destroy the gun, etc) then it won't stop it. Whether the Vikhr WILL do such a thing on a frontal hit is a bit hit-and-miss. So a single shot cannot be considered conclusive, I think - it will likely reduce combat capacity though, IMHO (damage to sensors, etc).

 

A hit to the side will also do damage, but so far tank hits to the side have been unpredictable - some caused mission-killing damage, others not. But yes, Vikhr is more powerful than a lot of the RPGs that were used.

[topol-m]

Well as there is not one M1A2 hit by Vikhr yet, we cant ask the crew how it was. But its a matter of time this happens. For instance if US sell some to Georgia, it wont be long for a new local conflict to bring some test subjects. Several KE rounds is bad but isnt an 8 kilo of explosive detonated worse (even if it doesnt penetrate the tank)? I havent seen such info on the effect on the crew of the tank when hit by a missile. Is there a possibility the crew is killed even without penetration?

[Kenan]

If the vikhr doesn't disable the tank in some way (kill crew, destroy the gun, etc) then it won't stop it.

 

It may not stop the tank but it may stop/discourage the crew. That's what I'm talking about. BTW, any tank hit to the flank by a Vikhr would have the tracks disabled and would be immobilized = easy target = crew bailing out.

[sobek]

Is there a possibility the crew is killed even without penetration?

 

Tank mines will often not penetrate the hull but hurdle the tank around a fair bit, AFAIK.

[GGTharos]

Why on earth would the US sell M1's to Georgia? :P

They've barely sold a bunch of M1A1's to the Aussies.

 

And yes, the 8 kilo chemichal warhead isn't quite the same as a 20 kilo DU dart, I agree ;)

 

The crew can be killed without penetration, but it seems to be very unlikely in the case of a modern tank - it appears that -some- penetration must occur to kill crew via shrapnel/spalling mechanisms, or setting the tank on fire etc.

 

The Vikhr would dig a hole in the tank, but if you think the Vikhr will do a whole lot better than a maverick with its 57lb warhead ...

 

Well as there is not one M1A2 hit by Vikhr yet, we cant ask the crew how it was. But its a matter of time this happens. For instance if US sell some to Georgia, it wont be long for a new local conflict to bring some test subjects. Several KE rounds is bad but isnt an 8 kilo of explosive detonated worse (even if it doesnt penetrate the tank)? I havent seen such info on the effect on the crew of the tank when hit by a missile. Is there a possibility the crew is killed even without penetration?

[GGTharos]

Maybe, it does have a frag-belt ... so far however flank hits on M1's have been hit-and-miss.

 

As for the crew being discouraged, you tell me how discouraged they are when the commander hits the 'point at laser source' button and the gun points right at you :P

 

Yes, it's a real thing.

 

It may not stop the tank but it may stop/discourage the crew. That's what I'm talking about. BTW, any tank hit to the flank by a Vikhr would have the tracks disabled and would be immobilized = easy target = crew bailing out.

[okolovos oko]

After i hit tank with one vikhr tank started smoking and while i turned chopper for another run on same tank to my surprize i saw mecanichs running around with wrenches and they were fixing tank..one of mchs had radio on his shoulder playin music and after unseccesfull fixap they called towing company and tank was removed from batlefielfd.. what a sim!!

[sobek]

 

The crew can be killed without penetration, but it seems to be very unlikely in the case of a modern tank - it appears that -some- penetration must occur to kill crew via shrapnel/spalling mechanisms, or setting the tank on fire etc.

 

 

I know of one incident where a leo2 gunner got killed without the tank even being hit, it just drove into the rear end of another leo at 50 km/h.

 

However, i don't think that being hit by a vikhr is a pleasant experience for the crew, be it an M1 or not.

[CE_Mikemonster]

I did wonder what the force behind it was due to that, no seatbelts in a tank. I read a few accounts this morning of crew getting injured after jumping the Abrams (i'm sure it isn't specific to that tank though!).

 

A certain VC winner nearly died early in his career by doing the same thing - shunting another tank (Johnson Beharry).

[Kenan]

Maybe, it does have a frag-belt ... so far however flank hits on M1's have been hit-and-miss.

 

Vikhr is a lot more powerful then RPG. The latter is no match at all. I'm aware that there have been quite a few cases of RPG hitting the sides without any damage to the tracks, but there's no doubt in my mind, if it was Vikhr instead, the Amraam would have been immobilized.

 

As for the crew being discouraged, you tell me how discouraged they are when the commander hits the 'point at laser source' button and the gun points right at you :P

 

Yes, it's a real thing.

Only theoretically. If the turret sustained a direct Vikhr hit, my guess is, it would take the crew at least 3-5 minutes to recover from the shock (at best, presuming the turret ie. the tank was not damaged by the hit!).

 

Mind you, this is an air-launched 2.90m missile not a hand-held RPG. ;)

Edited February 26, 2009 by Kenan

[GGTharos]

Not the same thing ... think about it this way. If gunfire isn't rattling the crew around enough to kill them, a small missile or KE round won't either.

 

I did wonder what the force behind it was due to that, no seatbelts in a tank. I read a few accounts this morning of crew getting injured after jumping the Abrams (i'm sure it isn't specific to that tank though!).

 

A certain VC winner nearly died early in his career by doing the same thing - shunting another tank (Johnson Beharry).

[GGTharos]

Vikhr is a lot more powerful then RPG. The latter is no match at all. I'm aware that there have been quite a few cases of RPG hitting the sides without any damage to the tracks, but there's no doubt in my mind, if it was Vikhr instead, the Amraam would have been immobilized.

 

AMRAAM, eh? :P

 

Vikhr is more powerful than a bunch of RPGs, but not all. Also keep in mind that it is a directed chemical energy weapon - ie. a shaped charge. It's the frag belt that makes it more interesting, but this is probably part of the warhead weight too ;)

 

Only theoretically. If the turret sustained a direct Vikhr hit, my guess is, it would take the crew at least 3-5 minutes to recover from the shock (at best, presuiming the turret ie. the tank was not damaged by the hit!).

 

Mind you, this is an air-launched 2.90m missile not a hand-held RPG. ;)

 

More like 3-5 seconds :)