Incipient roll in high winds with trim

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Please take a look at this track and crash at end. The crash was result of severe uncommaded incipent roll as result of complete loss of cyclic control. That is cyclic stoped responding to all input despite being zeroed after trim. I get this lethal bad behavior, from time to time, but cannot predict it, cannot explain it. When it developes, there is insufficient time to cancel trim, and level the helicopter. So I am gonna blame developers. Becouse as, in RW, unless therre is a mechanical catastrophic malfunction, there should not be a condition where cyclic simply stops accepting inputs. So bad developers. bad testing, bad testing methodology. Its all your fault. So there. Tongue out!

SA342_uncipientRoll.trk

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Same training mission flown, but with no MagTrim used. It was turned ON and available, but not invoked. Mission was to fly and land on, the T/O LHA in windy conditions normal for Guam. Guam average wind speed is betwen 10 and 15 knots with gusts.

Also note the discrepancy of wind in flight near LHA-1 and wind over it. Like there is a box around ship , inside ofwhich wind changes. That does not make sense to me.

SA342_noMagTrim.trk

[MAXsenna]

5 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Please take a look at this track and crash at end. The crash was result of severe uncommaded incipent roll as result of complete loss of cyclic control. That is cyclic stoped responding to all input despite being zeroed after trim. I get this lethal bad behavior, from time to time, but cannot predict it, cannot explain it. When it developes, there is insufficient time to cancel trim, and level the helicopter. So I am gonna blame developers. Becouse as, in RW, unless therre is a mechanical catastrophic malfunction, there should not be a condition where cyclic simply stops accepting inputs. So bad developers. bad testing, bad testing methodology. Its all your fault. So there. Tongue out!

SA342_uncipientRoll.trk 6.66 MB · 1 download

That looked pretty funny. I'm not sure, but you turned the "altitude hold". The developers have written in this forum that it is a work in progress, and that it currently doesn't work.
I've never experienced this ever, nothing even like it. I've lost control from time to time doing crazy stuff, but I almost always gain control back. Unless I've lost the tail. Hell, I've even landed (hard) without one. Nothing like this.

Tips!
Instead of switching seats to use the radio, click at he base of the collective to hide it.
Start the clock, and after 20 seconds, you can start up.
You never trim???? At least it looks like it in the controls indicator.
You deserve better, get a head tracker. TrackIR is not the only option, there are less expensive alternatives.

Will see if I can take control when it happens.

Cheers!

EDIT: Map the show/hide collective as back space. That's default in a lot of other modules, and it's not taken in the Gazelle.

Have you tried a quick trim reset (cheat) when it happens?

Edited August 26, 2023 by MAXsenna

[MAXsenna]

5 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Also note the discrepancy of wind in flight near LHA-1 and wind over it. Like there is a box around ship , inside ofwhich wind changes. That does not make sense to me.

Look pretty fine to me. In any case, that would be a core issue for ED to fix.
 

[MAXsenna]

6 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

 

Aaaarrggh!

I wish we could get the old editor back. Just lost lots of text and the whole post is messy!

Shorter version! I think you messed up your trimming. I took over the track and regained control. Flew over to the Tarawa and landed there like you did in the second track.
I recorded a video, but I guess my computer is too old and slow, because there was skips and stuttering so I can't really analyze what you did both in the control indicator and the via the instruments.
I uploaded my track for you to try. I did eventually crash , I guess that was due to going close to 300 Km/h near the water, while trying to screengrab on my old computer. Might not happen with you.
 

Here, you're not trimmed.

Here you trim.

Then I guess you try to center the stick. Which mode do you use? 

Hell breaks loose!

 

But I regained control.

null

SA342_uncipientRoll - My take on it (MAXsenna)..trk

Edited August 26, 2023 by MAXsenna

[DmitriKozlowsky]

The problem is with magnetic cyclic trim. When uncommanded roll happens , it is always on. With trim zeroed, it never happens. I don't know if mag trim issue has to do with IGE to OGE transition. Or into or out of ETL. Or that minigun variant is asymmetrically loaded.  Or some combination. Or something else. But it is risky and IMHO faulty implementation. So its easier to hand fly it with new FM.

[MAXsenna]

4 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

The problem is with magnetic cyclic trim. When uncommanded roll happens , it is always on. With trim zeroed, it never happens. I don't know if mag trim issue has to do with IGE to OGE transition. Or into or out of ETL. Or that minigun variant is asymmetrically loaded.  Or some combination. Or something else. But it is risky and IMHO faulty implementation. So its easier to hand fly it with new FM.

Hmmm... Interesting. I've never flown the minigun version before, ever.
Okay, but why did you pull up like that. Was that on purpose. In that case I misunderstood. I thought that was when the troubles started.
I assume you have noticed that it will roll to the left exactly like it did when you pick up a certain speed when taking off? Maybe that's what happened.
I'm not a helicopter physics expert, but this is new to the FM and have been discussed in the forum as a real effect true to life. Might be too pronounced though. I don't know.

I made a short video from the F2 view, kinda pleased with myself actually recovering it.

 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Pullup was responce, to best of my recollection, to avoid a dive. The nose dove while fuselage rolled . violently. As it happens, cyclic control was non-existent.

[MAXsenna]

20 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Pullup was responce, to best of my recollection, to avoid a dive. The nose dove while fuselage rolled . violently. As it happens, cyclic control was non-existent. 

Okay, the track might not be correct then. I'll play it again, just found out how I can have my own FOV in the cockpit, (had to temporarily stop TrackIR), so I should be able the actually see the dials know. 

So, you pulled up to avoid a dive, and then it rolls over? And cyclic was unresponsive. Are you sure you didn't trim, and then didn't center the stick all the way? 

 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

No not quite.

The nose dove while fuselage rolled. There was no control in roll and pitch axis. By the time I pulled on stick, the cyclic input was non-functional.