Auto Hover

[Raisuli]

For my next dumb Ka-50 question...auto-hover.  It doesn't like me.  I can get trimmed into a dead hover, hit auto-hover, and Bitchin' Nastya just laughs maniacally at me from the avionics bay, which means I'm missing something.  Watched Cap and didn't see anything different in my setup.

Yes, Nastya, there is a track file!  I was pounding the auto-hover button quite a bit here...

 

2023.08.28 KA-50 AutoHover.trk

[MAXsenna]

10 minutes ago, Raisuli said:

For my next dumb Ka-50 question...auto-hover.  It doesn't like me.  I can get trimmed into a dead hover, hit auto-hover, and Bitchin' Nastya just laughs maniacally at me from the avionics bay, which means I'm missing something.  Watched Cap and didn't see anything different in my setup.

Yes, Nastya, there is a track file!  I was pounding the auto-hover button quite a bit here...

 

2023.08.28 KA-50 AutoHover.trk 1.46 MB · 0 downloads

Trimmed? Zero speed? Above 4 meters?

[Raisuli]

Yes, yes, and yes.  Previous mission (no track; too much goof-off time) I had it trimmed to +/- 1 lateral motion with hands off the stick, and down to zero more than once.  ~80 meters, and the wheels were even up!

Yeah, if it wasn't for bitch' Nastya I'd land with the wheels up a lot.  Haven't gotten used to that in a helo yet!

[MAXsenna]

25 minutes ago, Raisuli said:

For my next dumb Ka-50 question...auto-hover.  It doesn't like me.  I can get trimmed into a dead hover, hit auto-hover, and Bitchin' Nastya just laughs maniacally at me from the avionics bay, which means I'm missing something.  Watched Cap and didn't see anything different in my setup.

Yes, Nastya, there is a track file!  I was pounding the auto-hover button quite a bit here...

 

2023.08.28 KA-50 AutoHover.trk 1.46 MB · 0 downloads

Turn on the autopilot!

You turn it off actually!

 

Edit:

Okay!

 

Not Okay!

 

Took over your track and flew around with autohover to different positions. (Added mine, apologies for the strange zoom behavior. Conflicting axis).
The trick in the Shark is to keep holding the trim button whenever you move yourself, or it will try to kill you!
Better yet, get an FFB stick, or some cheap joystick you can mod for helicopters by removing the spring, and add some RC dampers or rubberbands so it will stay in the trimmed position. Just remember to change the trim mode. After that helicopters will be soooo easy to fly.

Cheers!

2023.08.28 KA-50 AutoHover - MAXsenna.trk

Edited August 28, 2023 by MAXsenna

[Raisuli]

11 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Turn on the autopilot!

You turn it off actually!

 

I do, I just don't always look at them (they're mapped).  Or at least I think that's what those cool illuminated push buttons mean.  I know just enough to think I know more than I do.  This time I looked down.  I've been killed by the autopilot a few times, so it's off a lot if I'm out joyriding.

 

Wheels up, 40M (or am I set to feet?), +/4 on trim, hands off the stick, feet on the floor

 

2023.08.28 KA-50 AutoHover 2.trk

[MAXsenna]

9 minutes ago, Raisuli said:

I do, I just don't always look at them (they're mapped).  Or at least I think that's what those cool illuminated push buttons mean.  I know just enough to think I know more than I do.  This time I looked down.  I've been killed by the autopilot a few times, so it's off a lot if I'm out joyriding.

 

Wheels up, 40M (or am I set to feet?), +/4 on trim, hands off the stick, feet on the floor

 

2023.08.28 KA-50 AutoHover 2.trk 1.28 MB · 0 downloads

Edited my post above. Watch my track.
In your first one, you look at the buttons and turn them off.
Strange!

Edit: The screengrabs are from your track. Mysterious.

Edit2: Watching your second track. The first thing you do is turning them off.

Edit3: Right, you turned them on again, but it seems you never press the autohover button. I took over after you trimmed and stabilized, and just press it and it hovered. Might wanna check your bindings?

 

2023.08.28 KA-50 AutoHover 2 - MAXsenna.trk

Edited August 28, 2023 by MAXsenna

[Raisuli]

2 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Edited my post above. Watch my track.
In your first one, you look at the buttons and turn them off.
Strange!

Edit: The screengrabs are from your track. Mysterious.

Edit2: Watching your second track. The first thing you do is turning them off.

 

And once I get in a hover I turn them on 

I think I found the problem.  Yet another DCS bug...I changed the switch I had mapped to 'Auto Hover' and yes, you guessed it, DCS doesn't seem to realize I'm using the old switch and not the new one.  You would think since nothing else had been mapped to the old one yet it would know better.  I hadn't actually tried to use it before, either...

Um.

*cough*

I'll just...move along now...

Thanks a bunch, MAXsenna!  You really did help with this!

[MAXsenna]

10 minutes ago, Raisuli said:

I've been killed by the autopilot a few times, so it's off a lot if I'm out joyriding.

Don't ever turn them off. They are dampers too. IF you're gonna joyride. Keep holding the trim, or invoke the "Autopilot Director Control".

[MAXsenna]

And once I get in a hover I turn them on 
I think I found the problem.  Yet another DCS bug...I changed the switch I had mapped to 'Auto Hover' and yes, you guessed it, DCS doesn't seem to realize I'm using the old switch and not the new one.  You would think since nothing else had been mapped to the old one yet it would know better.  I hadn't actually tried to use it before, either...
Um.
*cough*
I'll just...move along now...
Thanks a bunch, MAXsenna!  You really did help with this!

Right. Hehe happy you found the culprit.
The Shark is supposed to help you/fly for you while you do other stuff. That's why trimming is so important in the Shark. You basically change/tell it where to fly.
Altitude hold can obviously be turned off when you feel like it.
Heading hold is nice to turn off when you are in a hover and need to change heading. Just turn it on again at correct heading!
Have you watched Volk's awesome Shark tips and tricks on YT?

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Raisuli]

So...good point...I'm trucking along chasing after a train for the practice, then out of the blue the helo suddenly banks hard right and I'm all in with the stick to the left just to keep from sliding into the ground.  Get the same thing with pitch, and if I can't react fast enough it's Ka-Fireball time.  That never happens with the autopilots off...

Any ideas on that, because I don't have sudden control inputs out of the blue if I turn them off.  If they're on and I'm maneuvering it's a crap shoot.

[MAXsenna]

So...good point...I'm trucking along chasing after a train for the practice, then out of the blue the helo suddenly banks hard right and I'm all in with the stick to the left just to keep from sliding into the ground.  Get the same thing with pitch, and if I can't react fast enough it's Ka-Fireball time.  That never happens with the autopilots off...
Any ideas on that, because I don't have sudden control inputs out of the blue if I turn them off.  If they're on and I'm maneuvering it's a crap shoot.

Yes, hold the trim in when you move the stick. Same in the Apache. I believe a lot of users would be happy if we could see the trim position and what the autopilot is doing in the Shark like in the Apache. Would explain a lot of the behaviour.
To be honest I hold the trim in, in every heli almost all the time. In the Huey and Gazelle I often turn off the magnetic brake totally, because then I can rest my hand at the base of the stick and just manipulate it with my thum and two fingers. Hopefully the autopilot and trim hat will be fixed for FFB in the Gazelle. Not sure I'll ever leave it alone after that.

When I finally get around to modding my stick, it will have an extension, and be placed so my arm/hand can rest on my thigh. That should solve all my issues in helis.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Raisuli]

Everyone says hold trim in all the time, where I tend to hit trim only after I get where I want to be; more of a tap.

Let me think.  Who is more likely to be right...the clueless newb, or everybody else...  Might need to remap my trip button.

Thanks again!  Watching Volk's video now.  Going to re-watch it later.  A few times.

[Slippery Pete]

Flight director mode, (the blue AP button off to itself separate from the four dampener channels) should almost NEVER be on.  It is for cross country waypoint to waypoint flying on a predetermined route.  It should never be on in a combat zone, and should never be on when wanting to joyride/turn at your leisure.  I've been flying the Ka-50 since it was released in 2008 (that's 15 years for those counting), and I simply never turn it on at all.  Only bank and pitch hold should be on 100% of the time, heading hold is optional if you want to keep your heading of course for hands off flying.  Altitude hold, only for hovering.  The trim works so well in the Kamov you do not need to rely on all dampener channels being on all at once all the time, and the flight director will only fight you for 90% of the things you are trying to do in it.   You certainly do not need to hold the trim button at all times if you fly it correctly with only the minmum of autopilot assists on.

Another thing to note, anytime you press the auto hover button, ALL AP channels automatically turn on, but they DON'T turn back off when you press it again, so you'll have to manually turn off the altitude hold channel again (and possible HH) if you want to get back into free flight after hovering.  So if you start getting shot at while in auto hover, and need to evasive maneuver, that's something you'll have to remember. 

 

[Raptor9]

To summarize some details in this discussion, the Flight Director mode disables the hold mode functionality of the autopilot channels without disabling the rate damping functions. This can be very useful if the player needs to perform maneuvers without constantly holding the trimmer down since the autopilot channels (with Flight Director off) will actively counter pilot flight control inputs in an effort to maintain the reference values of pitch, bank, heading, etc. For example, if the pilot's thumb is being used to slew the Shkval, designate a target, or hold the radio transmit button to make a radio call, the thumb cannot be simultaneously be holding the trimmer button.

In addition to interrupting the force trim holding the cyclic in place, the trimmer button is also used to interact with the autopilot channels. In either case of the Flight Director being enabled or not, pressing the trimmer button updates the attitude reference values of pitch, roll, and heading, and the collective brake updates the reference value of altitude if the autopilot Altitude channel is activated.

• When Flight Director is disabled, the pilot is tasking the autopilot to maintain these reference values. Pressing the trimmer button is like telling the autopilot "Let me have controls for a moment" and then when the trimmer is released it is telling the autopilot "Okay, you have control again, and hold the aircraft here." If the pilot makes a flight control input without pressing the trimmer, the autopilot will fight this because the pilot has tasked the autopilot to hold that reference value.
• When Flight Director is enabled, the pilot is telling the autopilot "I have the controls." and taking it upon himself to maintain the reference values that are set by the trimmer, which are accordingly projected onto the HUD to display how far the pilot has deviated from said reference values, and how to maneuver the aircraft in attitude (and altitude if necessary), to align the HUD attitude/altitude indicators with those references. Rate damping will remain to increase the overall stability of the helicopter, but the autopilot won't actively fight you when you maneuver the aircraft.

Another example of how Flight Director mode can be useful in a combat situation:
1) Enable Hover mode while hovering behind a vertical obstruction like a building or a hill. This will also activate the altitude autopilot channel.
2) Enable Flight Director which will inhibit the autopilot influences on the flight controls but will not disable Hover mode altogether.
3) Without pressing the trimmer, apply lateral cyclic input to slide left or right from behind cover and engage your intended target (with a Vikhr missile for instance).
4) Disable Flight Director, which will re-engage the autopilot influences on the flight controls, and let go of the cyclic. Since Hover mode is still enabled, the autopilot will translate your helicopter back to the original location that was marked when Hover mode was entered, bringing you back behind cover from any enemy counterattack on your helicopter.

The reason that you don't press the trimmer throughout this maneuver is because each time you release the trimmer, it updates the reference values that the autopilot is attempting to hold, which includes the reference position in Hover mode. By not pressing the trimmer, the referenced position will remain behind cover so that when Flight Director is disabled, the Hover mode logic will return the aircraft to that reference position.

So in summary, use the various autopilot channels and autopilot modes (even Flight Director mode) however is necessary given the situation, to reduce or optimize your workload as a single-pilot aircraft. Learning the various logics takes a bit to get used to, but once you get them down, the various "layers" of automation in the Ka-50 can be quite useful.

[Raisuli]

1 hour ago, Raptor9 said:

To summarize some details in this discussion...

<21 volume set of summaries snipped>

Getting my head wrapped around the auto pilot is going to be a project in and of itself.  Once I can fly without thinking about flying I'll worry about rapid unscheduled disassembly of opfor equipment.  That's my current project, just flying from A to B and landing within a cubit or two of where I aiming on the landing pad, even without downward visibility.  Once I get close peripheral vision seems to work, and until then knowing what reference points to use.

What's worse is it seems many people fly differently.  This summary and Volk's videos would appear to disagree, which is not a problem; it just means I need to find the methods that work best for me.  However, it does sound like FD has a place in that mix.  Might need a button on the HOTAS somewhere.

In the meantime has anyone else noticed flying helos and jets are complimentary?  The same skills that get my helo in a manual hover (with no autopilot channels on) also help with AAR or formations. 

This thing is a blast.  I've played with it a little (even back in BS2 days) but never really got into it until recently.  Of course it's just been recently I had the skill set to have a blast with it.  Wonder if those are related...