R-27R as a FOX 3 ?

[Agim]

Hi,

I was flying the Tomcat yesterday and hunted Mig-29. I fired Aim-54 from distance, Mig fired R-27R some time later. I was calm, because I knew he had to turn the plane and had to lost radar lock. Indeed, he turned even 180 so I was on his six, however his missile still hit me. How ?????

I was curious about this behaviour so I did some tests.  I jumped to the Mig-29 and fired some R-27R. I didn´t manage to reproduce this FOX 3 behaviour completely, but there is some issue still. I fired the missile and start to turn. The missile lost guidience indeed, but very late, when it was on my 130deg. I am confident that the radar of Mig has not such wide scale. I tested even R-27ER in Su-27 with the same result.

Is it bug or correct?

[okopanja]

33 minutes ago, Agim said:

Hi,

I was flying the Tomcat yesterday and hunted Mig-29. I fired Aim-54 from distance, Mig fired R-27R some time later. I was calm, because I knew he had to turn the plane and had to lost radar lock. Indeed, he turned even 180 so I was on his six, however his missile still hit me. How ?????

I was curious about this behaviour so I did some tests.  I jumped to the Mig-29 and fired some R-27R. I didn´t manage to reproduce this FOX 3 behaviour completely, but there is some issue still. I fired the missile and start to turn. The missile lost guidience indeed, but very late, when it was on my 130deg. I am confident that the radar of Mig has not such wide scale. I tested even R-27ER in Su-27 with the same result.

Is it bug or correct?

You were jamming and his missile homed on your jamming signal.

[Agim]

Jammer is up to Jester, am I right? I didn't save a track file unfortunately, so I can't to confirm it. Hopefully a Jester 2.0 will be smarter and turn the jammer OFF ;-).

[firimar]

Also in dcs r-27r can continue to track you if shooter turns 180 and some other plane has radar lock on you )

[okopanja]

27 minutes ago, firimar said:

Also in dcs r-27r can continue to track you if shooter turns 180 and some other plane has radar lock on you )

You can not do this with your own airplane:

1. Lock

2. Launch

3. Drop lock, missile will go ballistic.

4. Lock again, and missile will not continue guiding.

This was corrected earlier this year, since the IRL manual explicitly states re-locking is not possible. This means in turn that other aircraft has absolutly not the chance to do the same.

I am pretty sure you got this wrong.

The only reason he had received the R-27 is due to the jammer being on.

[Agim]

You are probably right. Usually I order Jester to set Defensive Jamming. It is mode of continuous jamming probably.

However, I am still confused by my tests in Mig. What is explanation of guiding R-27 to the bandit who is at my 4 oclock? In this position there shouldn´t be any lock on bandit.

[okopanja]

1 minute ago, Agim said:

However, I am still confused by my tests in Mig. What is explanation of guiding R-27 to the bandit who is at my 4 oclock? In this position there shouldn´t be any lock on bandit.

You can not launch at 4 o'clock. Launch has to occur within Radar/EO gimbal limits. Afterwards, provided that HOJ was activated on launch it will track the source of ECM emission. He can turn away and laugh as he escapes amraam by turning cold. As long as there is emission it will track.

The only better shot than ET shot is ER shot on someone who does not pay attention to this risk.

One more thing, once you are close enough EO might provide ranging information, often before radar burnthrough. So flanker may have more info than his opponent employing same tactic without EO. This especially funny against space eagles.

[Agim]

I lunched it in nose to nose possition, than started to turn. Track file is attached. I also attached screenshot of F10 map just before impact. The problem is not missile obviously, but radar of Migs and Suchois. Their radar keeps lock in too wide range of angles.

r27.trk

[Snappy]

13 minutes ago, Agim said:

I lunched it in nose to nose possition, than started to turn. Track file is attached. I also attached screenshot of F10 map just before impact. The problem is not missile obviously, but radar of Migs and Suchois. Their radar keeps lock in too wide range of angles.

r27.trk 120.56 kB · 1 download

Are you  sure the E-2 doesn’t also jam and the original issue with the R27 HOJ was simply repeated?

Edited November 3, 2023 by Snappy

[Agim]

Yeah, I am sure, because if I turn more, the missile than loss the track.

[okopanja]

2 hours ago, Agim said:

Yeah, I am sure, because if I turn more, the missile than loss the track.

Congrats you really managed to find the corner case, that may require the ED dudes to take a closer look.

Pity we do not have the original trk with tomcat.

Against Hawkeye I think there was no jamming involved and I do believe this might be a totally different case.

Here is what I think happened here, after replying your trk and taking over the control myself several times:

- the radar of Mig-29 really lost the track, however when the radar looses track it will try to work in memory mode while extrapolating the positions for several seconds.

- the missile kept flying after the loss of track and  in relative proximity of target it needed to cover way to target amounting to ~ 1.1km (which at that moment did not maneuver hard enough), it reached the vicinity of target, where the proximity fuse got activated.

It is worth to note that proximity fuses work only in single player. Due to the network latency in MP and speed of missiles, even the smallest delay can cause the proximity fuses to activate too late for explosion to destroy the target. Therefore MP has actually less realistic system which guides missiles for direct impact. 

Let's wait for the ED's verdict.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by okopanja
corrected typos

[Agim]

I know, it is minor bug, but still unfair advantage of eastern jets

[JayJ]

2 hours ago, Agim said:

I know, it is minor bug, but still unfair advantage of eastern jets

It's called proximity fuse

[Ironhand]

5 hours ago, okopanja said:

…- the radar of Mig-29 really lost the track, however when the radar looses track it will try to work in memory mode while extrapolating the positions for several seconds…

Haven’t had an opportunity to view the TRK myself but I’m not sure what memory mode has to do with anything in this instance. If the target is beyond the gimbal limits, it’s beyond the gimbal limits and no longer illuminated. Memory mode will not be a factor.

[okopanja]

14 minutes ago, Ironhand said:

Haven’t had an opportunity to view the TRK myself but I’m not sure what memory mode has to do with anything in this instance. If the target is beyond the gimbal limits, it’s beyond the gimbal limits and no longer illuminated. Memory mode will not be a factor.

I suggest you watch the trk both in SP and MP. And try it youself.

[Ironhand]

26 minutes ago, okopanja said:

I suggest you watch the trk both in SP and MP. And try it youself.

From your response, it sounds like the radar entered mem mode prior to the radar hitting its limits. In which case, no problem.

[Skuva]

In that track the missile is simply following proportional navigation based on its last calculated path to intercept and end up being correct enough to prox fuse, because the target is not maneuvering enough.

Replaying the track and doing slightly different maneuvers to lose lock at different times yields different results. If you lose lock after the target's initial maneuver the missile will intercept because it made the correct enough prediction. While if you lose lock before the target finishes the initial diving turn the prediction will be way off and the missile will miss everytime.