Clear unscratched canopies and/or the option to remove old baked in reflections.

[SharpeXB]

The idea that every problem in DCS should be solved with an On Off button precludes having better solutions. If the canopy is well done nobody would want to turn it off. 

[MAXsenna]

The idea that every problem in DCS should be solved with an On Off button precludes having better solutions. If the canopy is well done nobody would want to turn it off. 

That's a matter of subjective opinion. No matter how "beautiful" they are, it doesn't change the fact that you can't focus through them. Whatever... it falls on deth ears as always. Nothing new under the sun...

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

The idea that every problem in DCS should be solved with an On Off button precludes having better solutions.

It really doesn't.

Even with a better solution in place, you would still come across situations where you'd want to turn in off. And just because it can be turned off doesn't mean there won't be situation where you'd want it to be on and see a better solution.

There is zero connection between a quality option and an on-off option.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

If the canopy is well done nobody would want to turn it off. 

…except for the ones who don't think it's well done. And the ones who think it's ugly. And the ones who want their frame time to be as small as possible. And the ones who still can't see through it properly, which was the problem all along.

[SharpeXB]

25 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

That's a matter of subjective opinion. No matter how "beautiful" they are, it doesn't change the fact that you can't focus through them. Whatever... it falls on deth ears as always. Nothing new under the sun...

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Well you can’t focus past the canopy in 2D either. Yet the effect of having it off would be rather awful. And people would just see this as an exploit in MP. The game doesn’t need yet another server/mission setting. Done right there shouldn’t be the desire to turn it off. 

[Tippis]

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Well you can’t focus past the canopy in 2D either.

…which just further highlights the need for fix. The effect of turning it off is, if anything, a relief and mods to that effect have been popular pretty much from day 1. Better still, if there was an option, you could choose not to exercise it if you felt that the result would be “rather awful”.

If people in MP see it as an exploit, then they still don't matter and they'd be objectively wrong even if they did.

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The game doesn’t need yet another server/mission setting. Done right there shouldn’t be the desire to turn it off. 

The game needs every option it can conceivable get, because there will always be a desire to turn something off for any number of reasons. The only “done right” variant that wouldn't create that would be if the reflections didn't exist to begin with. That is, “done right” would be “rather awful” according to your tastes. And that is exactly why more options is better than any attempt at one-size-fits-all.

[MoleUK]

15 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The idea that every problem in DCS should be solved with an On Off button precludes having better solutions. If the canopy is well done nobody would want to turn it off. 

Correct, but I am not in favor of making the perfect the enemy of the good.

It could take months/years for an individual case by case fix to arrive. Something more universal/basic while we wait for those improvements in the meantime would be very welcome.

Personally, I am generally more in favor or giving the customer more control over their cosmetic options. At heart this is a quality of life feature that is currently lacking. I used the clear canopy mod for a long time before the IC change banned it, as did many others, and it made a positive impact on my experience.

While I'd welcome the Huey and Hip and other modules getting their canopy reflections individually fixed/updated, I don't expect that this would happen in a reasonable timeframe atm. And we had a working solution that did not require booking up the staff at ED who do texture work, whom I understand may have their scheduled booked up in up to a year in advance. While adjusting the shaders was not a perfect solution, it was a working one.

Even just having that on/off option in the .lua files would be fantastic, as it would avoid having to schedule up any texture or UI work for now.

Edited November 12, 2023 by MoleUK

[SharpeXB]

48 minutes ago, MoleUK said:

It could take months/years for an individual case by case fix to arrive

Everything in DCS takes months and years to accomplish. So a “simple” On Off option would likely take that long to implement as well. If we’re going to wait, it might as well be for an actually good solution. 

[MoleUK]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Everything in DCS takes months and years to accomplish. So a “simple” On Off option would likely take that long to implement as well. If we’re going to wait, it might as well be for an actually good solution. 

The simple on/off option already exists. It's this file.

More specifically it's commenting out or deleting these two lines of code in said file: if(!(Flags & F_DISABLE_SHADOWMAP))
        shadow = min(shadow, applyShadow(float4(mp.pos, input.projPos.z/input.projPos.w), mp.normal, true, true, Flags & F_IN_COCKPIT));

That's it.

glass.hlsl

Edited November 12, 2023 by MoleUK

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, MoleUK said:

The simple on/off option already exists. It's this file.

More specifically it's commenting out or deleting two lines of code in said file. That's it.

glass.hlsl 10.6 kB · 1 download

But again, such an option would be seen as an exploit in MP so it’s not such a simple solution. The fix for those canopies is just a “simple” texture plus not setting the cockpit shadows off. 

[MoleUK]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But again, such an option would be seen as an exploit in MP so it’s not such a simple solution. The fix for those canopies is just a “simple” texture plus not setting the cockpit shadows off. 

If it's allowed then those who wish to use it will, and those who don't won't. It's personal preference, ultimately.

ECW disabled IC for months just so people could use the spotting mod and this particular shader tweak. It was fine.

I'd love to see the textures get fixed. It might never happen, at least for the older modules.

In the meantime, it's two lines in a shader file. That's all that would require an on/off toggle.

Edited November 12, 2023 by MoleUK

[SharpeXB]

15 minutes ago, MoleUK said:

If it's allowed then those who wish to use it will, and those who don't won't. It's personal preference, ultimately.

ECW disabled IC for months just so people could use the spotting mod and this particular shader tweak. It was fine.

I'd love to see the textures get fixed. It might never happen, at least for the older modules.

In the meantime, it's two lines in a shader file. That's all that would require an on/off toggle.

Since disabling the canopy reflections would be an exploit in MP it’s a more complex question for the game than just editing a simple .lua file. Plus that whole shader folder can be used for cheating and exploits if it’s left unlocked. That’s why it was added to the IC. 

Most aircraft as far as I see don’t need a fix for those canopy reflections so a global option isn’t needed. It’s just a fix for 2 or 3 older aircraft afaik. 

[cfrag]

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But again, such an option would be seen as an exploit in MP

By whom, and why? My guess is that it would be you (and perhaps a handful of people similar), and you assume that it could be used as an exploit against you in MP. I think that is why you would not want this fix to go in. 

Moreover, you can point to where this fix can be used against you? Do you know what commenting out these line would do? Not to mention the fact that the line @MoleUK quoted does not appear in the shader code?

 

The fix is here:
 

finalColor = 0.0; //=float4(ShadeTransparent(input.Position.xy, atm.sunColor, mp.diffuse.rgb, mp.diffuse.a, mp.normal, mp.aorms.y, mp.aorms.z, mp.emissive, shadow, cloudShadowAO, mp.toCamera, mp.pos, true, Flags & F_IN_COCKPIT), mp.diffuse.a) *0.2; //Taz1004 Canopy Transparency Default is 1

 

Now, how is that an exploit and how would it affect you?

 

[Tippis]

22 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Since disabling the canopy reflections would be an exploit in MP

It wouldn't, by very definition.

If it were, the following things would also not be allowed in MP and should be removed as options:

• Playing in VR
• Playing in pancake
• Playing in a simpit
• Playing on multiple monitors
• Playing at any resolution above 720p
• Playing in a user-selected aircraft
• Using in-game voip
• Using out-of-game voip
• Using chat
• Everything else you can do in the game, really

If disabling canopy reflections was an option, it would be… [drumroll] an option. Your decision not to use that option doesn't make others' opposite decision an exploit. If you feel you are at a disadvantage for picking an option, you are free to picking the other one. You are not the arbiter of what is an exploit and what isn't, and your dislike for any given option is wholly irrelevant in that determination.

22 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Most aircraft as far as I see don’t need a fix for those canopy reflections so a global option isn’t needed. It’s just a fix for 2 or 3 older aircraft afaik

Your aesthetical preferences are also irrelevant. Fixing almost every aircraft in the game does not remove the need for the option, no matter how much better you think it looks. Those that don't like the look of canopy reflections would still not be served, and they'd be denied a trivial and useful option for such an utterly pointless reason as your unfounded PvP paranoia and personal preference.

Oh, and since you love invoking the heavy burned on ED to make any change happen, you realise that the non-solution you're asking would take years to implement, whereas the actual solution can be churned out in a single afternoon (most of which is spent on coffee breaks), right? You're contradicting your own position, again. As always.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

22 minutes ago, cfrag said:

By whom, and why?

Anyone who wants the sim to be realistic. It’s entirely realistic for canopy reflections to interfere with your view. Sure this effect could be better done in some modules but I don’t see why a realistic sim would have an option to turn this off. 

[cfrag]

39 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Anyone who wants the sim to be realistic.

I want the sim to be realistic. And I wrote that fix myself. That should tell you everything you need. Please let it go.

Also, realism has nothing to do with exploits. Please let it go.

Edited November 12, 2023 by cfrag

[Xtorris]

I did this for several modules (F-14A/B, AH-64, Mi-24, AV-8B, A-10C, A-10 CII), which installed to the saved games folder, so there would be no issues with IC whatsoever. However, they were removed from my upload page, by whomever does the daily approval/rejection of user mods. I guess ED would rather punish people, who have lower end computers.

[SharpeXB]

7 minutes ago, cfrag said:

I want the sim to be realistic. And I wrote that fix myself. That should tell you everything you need. Please let it go.

Also, realism has nothing to do with exploits. Please let it go.

 

I agree that effect could use improvement on some modules. But I can see why ED wouldn’t want players to alter those files at will. 

[MoleUK]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Since disabling the canopy reflections would be an exploit in MP it’s a more complex question for the game than just editing a simple .lua file. Plus that whole shader folder can be used for cheating and exploits if it’s left unlocked. That’s why it was added to the IC. 

Most aircraft as far as I see don’t need a fix for those canopy reflections so a global option isn’t needed. It’s just a fix for 2 or 3 older aircraft afaik. 

It would not be an exploit if it were officially approved and whitelisted.

If MP competitiveness is your concern: Those who fly modules without reflections and scratches that block their view so badly are at an unfair advantage. Having an option to remove them would level the playing field.

If realism is your concern: The baked in reflections are not remotely realistic. Neither is having no reflections at all. These two unrealistic options are all we currently have to choose from, and I would rather choose no reflections personally.

Edited November 12, 2023 by MoleUK

[Tippis]

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I agree that effect could use improvement on some modules. But I can see why ED wouldn’t want players to alter those files at will. 

But they do allow players to alter those files at will.

And again, an “improvement” on some modules doesn't actually address the problem, nor does it remove the need for a switch. If anything, it might actually increase the need for a toggle. Not to mention the amount of work that would be needed in comparison with the far more simpler and efficient way of making a sufficient solution for everyone's needs.

[SharpeXB]

31 minutes ago, MoleUK said:

It would not be an exploit if it were officially approved and whitelisted.

If MP competitiveness is your concern: Those who fly modules without reflections and scratches that block their view so badly are at an unfair advantage. Having an option to remove them would level the playing field.

If realism is your concern: The baked in reflections are not remotely realistic. Neither is having no reflections at all. These two unrealistic options are all we currently have to choose from, and I would rather choose no reflections personally.

The option would have to be yet another mission/server setting. It would probably be better to just fix the effect on those few modules.

[MoleUK]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The option would have to be yet another mission/server setting. It would probably be better to just fix the effect on those few modules.

It would definitely be better if the modules themselves were touched up.

While I would prefer it was done on the user side, I could live with it being a server side setting.

This would create even more work on ED's end though, my initial suggestion was meant to involve as little time/effort involved from ED to increase the chances of this happening at all. Whitelisting the clear canopy mod or having it a toggle somewhere would be the simplest method atm.

Edited November 12, 2023 by MoleUK

[Tippis]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The option would have to be yet another mission/server setting.

Nah. If people want to be able to see out of the cockpit, that's not something the server needs to be bothered about.

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It would probably be better to just fix the effect on those few modules.

It would probably be better to allow people to set up their view options to match what their hardware is doing, much like how you can pick a resolution and detail levels, and post processing, and display type. As a bonus, that kind of thing can be done quite literally by tomorrow, as opposed to hopefully some time before 2025.

There are literally no downsides to having an option, especially one that already exists but simply isn't exposed by the UI. Zero. Your personal preference is part of that zero.

[MoleUK]

2 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Nah. If people want to be able to see out of the cockpit, that's not something the server needs to be bothered about.

It would probably be better to allow people to set up their view options to match what their hardware is doing, much like how you can pick a resolution and detail levels, and post processing, and display type. As a bonus, that kind of thing can be done quite literally by tomorrow, as opposed to hopefully some time before 2025.

There are literally no downsides to having an option, especially one that already exists but simply isn't exposed by the UI. Zero. Your personal preference is part of that zero.

Having real reflections in the canopy (and in mirrors for that matter) in VR would be a great feature if they added it. But at that point it would need to be a toggle for performance reasons regardless.

While the clear canopy mod isn't perfect, I really did prefer that solution to the current visuals. And as ever I tend to err on the side of the user having more control over their graphical/visual settings as only being a good thing generally.

Edited November 12, 2023 by MoleUK

[Tippis]

1 minute ago, MoleUK said:

Having real reflections in the canopy (and in mirrors for that matter) in VR would be a great feature if they added it. But at that point it would need to be a toggle for performance reasons regardless.

Pretty much, yeah.

It would be a lot of work to arrive right back at the initial request since it wouldn't be addressed by a mere visual change. Quite the opposite.

[MoleUK]

1 minute ago, Tippis said:

Pretty much, yeah.

It would be a lot of work to arrive right back at the initial request since it wouldn't be addressed by a mere visual change. Quite the opposite.

Yep. While I might like having the option of real-time reflections in the canopy, I can already guess that I'd want to run with them disabled even if they weren't all that performance intensive. Which they probably would be.

I do wonder if third party modules could have a "no canopy scratches" cockpit as an option in special options going forward as well.