Whether the Kiowa has good campaigns will be the key to whether I buy it

[Tomsk]

IMO the Kiowa is going to be very similar to the Gazelle: a lightly armed scout helicopter. In my experience this kind of helicopter doesn't have a lot of utility on most MP servers, and the best gameplay for these helicopters is found in scripted campaigns.

MP servers are generally balanced for much more capable platforms like the Apache or fixed-wings. Sure you can load a Gazelle up with HOT missiles and use it like a crApache that can only carry 4 short-ranged missiles, which it can only (realistically) use from a hover. Or you can go air-quaking other helicopters, or use it like a transport helicopter with a very small capacity. None of these things are the kind of flying I really want to do with the Gazelle or Kiowa: guns and rockets, hell-for-leather flying, supporting troops in contact.

IMO where a helicopter like the Kiowa would shine most is how it was used IRL in Iraq and Afghanistan: doing COIN ops. Supporting troops, scouting ahead, engaging enemy infantry and light vehicles, coordinating with friendlies on the ground, and using those guns and rockets to suppress insurgent attacks. This is how I would most like to fly the Kiowa. IMO the only realistic way I can see we might get those kind of low-intensity COIN scenarios at the moment is via scripted campaigns.

I remember in the past hearing that the Kiowa would come with several realistic campaigns. If it does, this will be an automatic buy for me. Even better if we get some campaigns for the upcoming Iraq or Aghanistan maps. However, if it doesn't I'm not so sure what I would use it for. As I said above, I don't think it has a huge amount of utility in general MP, which is always going to be balanced for much more capable aircraft. I really like the Gazelle now with its new flight model (you guys did a great job on that) .. but I don't fly it much because it doesn't have much of a role. Mostly when I have flown it it has been in one of the few campaigns that do exist for it, but there aren't many. I'm really hoping the Kiowa can provide a lot more here.

Edited January 31, 2024 by Tomsk

[cfrag]

13 hours ago, Tomsk said:

Or you can go air-quaking other helicopters, or use it like a transport helicopter with a very small capacity.

Or go scouting, or go CSAR. Or go (civ) taxi service. Insert troops. Or perform plane guard. Have you ever been to one of the rescue servers? There's a lot to do in a whirlybird besides making things go boom. But if you dig that, escort duty may be your thing.

14 hours ago, Tomsk said:

As I said above, I don't think it has a huge amount of utility in general MP,

I feel that you are limiting yourself unnecessarily. Do try some other mission types. I'd be surprised if you didn't enjoy the feeling. Flying a helo is so much more gratifying than a fixed wing's bank'n'yank. I'm hopeful that the Kiowa is going to be a great helicopter (the Gazelle experience was somewhat lacking, and the thankfully new flight model is improved but still feels lacking at low speeds). That being said, it's a day one purchase for me - simply because I'm a helo nut  

 

[Tomsk]

You misunderstand: I own lots of (simulated) helicopters across many different flight sims. I regularly do CSAR, or civilian taxi services, or troop insertions. My question is not "Why fly helicopters?" I love helicopters, I have several hundred simulated hours in them. I have a complete set of full size dedicated helicopter controls. But I don't have a pokemon "Gotcha own them all!" attitude, each new helicopter has to bring something new. My question is "Why buy the Kiowa?": what can it do that's unique and exciting, compared to the other helicopters? Well for me that's about the mission it flew IRL: supporting troops on the ground.

However, to get that kind of experience in DCS (IMO) requires scripted campaigns - DCS MP just won't give that kind of experience (sadly). Hence, for me personally, what makes the Kiowa unique and exciting will be whether it comes with some good campaigns that really give a sense of what flying that mission in the Kiowa was like. If we get some great campaigns like that then the Kiowa will offer something unique: you can't find that kind of experience anywhere else. However, without them (for me personally) it's just another helicopter.

 

Edited February 1, 2024 by Tomsk

[Iron Sights]

I think you should also consider the challenge that flying certain helicopters bring. I fly the Hip quite a bit but it is more a troop transport compared to something like the Apache. I do agree with your analysis on what where you would factor in on a MP battlefield. For me, I’ll still take something like the Gazelle out just to challenge myself. The Kiowa is a niche type helicopter designed for an observation role, working with other helicopters or doing scouting of the battlefield. I think it will shine more on a campaign based around its uses, but you can still have fun on a server. This is not an isolated case, there are many DCS modules that can do just about anything and others that have a more specific role that doesn’t always fit in on a MP server, but then that’s a challenge too.

[Hallsy]

I am personally really looking forward to the Kiowa and its capabilities. You are right though, DCS is very limited in its ground simulation. Mostly fly here, destroyer random armour in an open field, get shot down by coax while not in LOS. It would be awesome to respond to dynamic CAS calls or have some sort of meaningful recon mechanic. I always hope that one day, someone would make a low intensity COIN server. Some place that caters to training aircraft, utility helos, scout helos, and eventually the Kiowa and A-29. A place where you can escort convoys, insert troops and such without the threat of SAMs or hardened targets. We can only hope DCS evolves to allow for this gameplay so the Kiowa can thrive.

[Tomsk]

On 2/3/2024 at 2:45 AM, Hallsy said:

I always hope that one day, someone would make a low intensity COIN server. Some place that caters to training aircraft, utility helos, scout helos, and eventually the Kiowa and A-29. A place where you can escort convoys, insert troops and such without the threat of SAMs or hardened targets. We can only hope DCS evolves to allow for this gameplay so the Kiowa can thrive.

I absolutely agree this is what DCS needs: a server that is based on COIN & low-intensity conflict. I've actually thought of making such a server myself: multiplayer PvE, based around infantry and light vehicles. No tanks, no enemy aircraft, no SAMs beyond MANPADs. My idea would be to dynamically create multiplayer "missions" for example: escort, responding to troops-in-contact, air-assault, base defense, artillery & mortar interdiction, resupply and CSAR. Focused around helicopters, but also allowing CAS with fixed wing assets like the A-10.

My thought was to be like a dynamic (and obviously somewhat simpler) version of the kind of missions the Operation Piercing Fury campaign provides, but much lower-intensity and multiplayer. I'd reckon on using some of the new neural text-to-speech APIs that became available recently to provide realistic voices to troops on the ground and maybe even Chat GPT to add flavour to the text. I have the skills to do this (I'm a software developer) .. but the big question is whether I'll get round to it

Edited February 5, 2024 by Tomsk

[Hallsy]

On 2/5/2024 at 7:39 AM, Tomsk said:

I absolutely agree this is what DCS needs: a server that is based on COIN & low-intensity conflict. I've actually thought of making such a server myself: multiplayer PvE, based around infantry and light vehicles. No tanks, no enemy aircraft, no SAMs beyond MANPADs. My idea would be to dynamically create multiplayer "missions" for example: escort, responding to troops-in-contact, air-assault, base defense, artillery & mortar interdiction, resupply and CSAR. Focused around helicopters, but also allowing CAS with fixed wing assets like the A-10.

My thought was to be like a dynamic (and obviously somewhat simpler) version of the kind of missions the Operation Piercing Fury campaign provides, but much lower-intensity and multiplayer. I'd reckon on using some of the new neural text-to-speech APIs that became available recently to provide realistic voices to troops on the ground and maybe even Chat GPT to add flavour to the text. I have the skills to do this (I'm a software developer) .. but the big question is whether I'll get round to it

 

Let me know if you undertake this endeavour. I am a quite experienced mission maker/server admin myself!

[Gunnar81]

On 2/2/2024 at 7:45 PM, Hallsy said:

I am personally really looking forward to the Kiowa and its capabilities. You are right though, DCS is very limited in its ground simulation. Mostly fly here, destroyer random armour in an open field, get shot down by coax while not in LOS. It would be awesome to respond to dynamic CAS calls or have some sort of meaningful recon mechanic. I always hope that one day, someone would make a low intensity COIN server. Some place that caters to training aircraft, utility helos, scout helos, and eventually the Kiowa and A-29. A place where you can escort convoys, insert troops and such without the threat of SAMs or hardened targets. We can only hope DCS evolves to allow for this gameplay so the Kiowa can thrive.

There is already a couple of mission sets that do this to a certain extent. Apache Hunting Ground has I think 100+ random CAS 'calls for help' and there is a similar mission for the Hind. The Kiowa could easily be included into these types of missions as long as the enemies were mostly infantry based or light truck to reflect COIN. Something to maybe check out for inspiration or ask the author if you could modify the existing mission set.