New system for viewing maps in cockpit

[zerO_crash]

While this has been mentioned before, I am making a specific wish for an expanded set of map tools. I am missing the following:

 

A dedicated new map (not the current AWACS-view). Basically, allow to open the map with only the tools listed below. This map would function as a normal physical map that a pilot has. Everything drawn on it, would only be shown to the pilot of thay given aircraft (individual between crew-members). (The AWACS-view, could be used as a modern "tablet" that crew-members use. Allow the mission commander to draw on it such that it's visible to everyone in that coalition. If a crew-member draws, it only shows for them. Essentially, have a military command structure associated with the AWACS-map.)

 

For the paper map, following tools are needed:

 

- A proper ruler (I wish to find out the range between two points myself, with the given map scale, instead of having the current "automatic" inplementation.

 

- An ability to draw on the map (lines, icons, add comment bubbles (better than whatbis currently implemented - on a white background and able to stay open, unless I specifically close it).

 

- Don't allow to perform any zooming on the map. Only view-zoom. The map should function exactly like a physical one (think of the Mi-24P doppler map - if you want to move the map around, you have to jump between zones, not fine moving).

 

With this system, allow to select was is permissable in the mission setup - paper map/AWACS-view/both. That way, one can adjust the setup to a given historic scenario. Also, have the physical map, preferably show more realistically in the cockpit (laid out on the legs of the pilot, or so).

 

The expanded map tools, are especially a much needed functionality.

 

zerO

Edited March 30, 2024 by zerO_crash

[bies]

Yes, I'm not sure how exactly, but something should be done. I think about something simple, like a map on a kneeboard.

F10 is kind of experience-breaking and silly, let alone zooming, let alone GPS in WW2/Cold War era 

[Tippis]

Hell, just giving some navigation arrows on the kneeboard map to “flip over to then next page” rather than being restricted to the auto-guesstimated views it generates from waypoints would be a huge step forward. Especially as the game is moving more and more towards dynamic and real-time playing where you might not even have any waypoints defined to begin with — all is done “live” in the cockpit rather than in the mission planner.

[Tank50us]

42 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Hell, just giving some navigation arrows on the kneeboard map to “flip over to then next page” rather than being restricted to the auto-guesstimated views it generates from waypoints would be a huge step forward. Especially as the game is moving more and more towards dynamic and real-time playing where you might not even have any waypoints defined to begin with — all is done “live” in the cockpit rather than in the mission planner.

Yeah I can see this. Like, you place a 'marker' down on your map, and it presents a coordinate that you can program into the NavComputer for the more modern jets, or have an option where you can see a representation of your position on the map for something like a warbird (which may not be that accurate, but it'd be enough to find your way to an airfield).

One thing that would also be nice is if when you're in the rearming page you get a pop-up that allows you to pre-program the GPS guided bombs, since that was usually done by the ground crews anyway. This would be accomplished by having a tick mark (like we have for the fuse) on the bomb option, and then you get a map that pops up that you can manipulate, and chose the target point for the bomb. You could also get a mark on the map that shows where you programed your other bombs so you don't accidentally program 3 of 4 bombs to hit the same target.

[zerO_crash]

It should definitely be split into two different views. One can retain the current AWACS (modern - simulating tablet), and one has to be a pure map with tools (historical/current - simulating only access to a basic map and tools for navigation). That much is clear. Anything else, would be a mix of functionality, and that doesn´t allow for too much realism.

 

It is also clear, that while the modern map (tablet) can work very much like AWACS-view does currently (fine zoom, fine movement, etc...), the historical/current map, should only allow sector-type of navigating (view is changed by scrolling through sectors). The historical/current map should not allow for any zoom-level, other than pure view zooming. The big question here would be whether to extract maps in with different zoom-aspects, such that a user can selected through the F-10 menu (e.g.) which specific map he/she wants. If you expect to fly a short mission, you can chose a more detalied and zoomed-in map. If you intend to fly a longer distance, you chose a map with less detail, albeit with more conveniant coverage (allows to jump look around the map faster, than a zoomed-in one). In essence, this would require extracting 2-3 layers from the current AWACS-view at different zoom levels (again, think here of Mi-24´s doppler map - you chose one zoom level, and the you stay with it).

 

The layout in-cockpit should be exactly that. One, being a tablet mounted to the leg of the pilot, where you can view any information otherwise kept in a kneeboard. The other, would be a simple kneeboard, mixed with a map that is layed on the legs of the pilot. In both cases, it has to work especially well with VR.

Edited March 31, 2024 by zerO_crash

[zerO_crash]

1 minute ago, Red_Pilot said:

And in addition, you need to be able to share the route map with members of your squad before the flight! And of course it is necessary to give mission makers the opportunity to attach a map with a route and a task individually for each slot in the mission, the ability to change this route on the map depending on the chosen mission online, for example.. if the task defined by mission makers

 

I am not sure how air force tablets are utilized in the different air forces. It would definitely make sense to have such functions, provided real air force tablets have them. I imagine that there is a command-structure associated with each "user/pilot", where they register within a specified flight or so, but this is pure speculation.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Tank50us said:

Like, you place a 'marker' down on your map, and it presents a coordinate that you can program into the NavComputer for the more modern jets,

You can do this by pressing LAlt and clicking on the map. It brings up the coordinate you can then enter into the CDU

On 3/29/2024 at 8:28 PM, zerO_crash said:

For the paper map, following tools are needed:

Have you checked the User Files? My guess is someone has already made a utility like this. If I understand correctly you’re simply looking for a “realistic” map with tools that mimic period navigation. Like if you wanted to conduct a WWII flight using a protractor and ruler etc. 

[zerO_crash]

44 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Have you checked the User Files? My guess is someone has already made a utility like this. If I understand correctly you’re simply looking for a “realistic” map with tools that mimic period navigation. Like if you wanted to conduct a WWII flight using a protractor and ruler etc. 

 

As a perfectionist, I have never been a fan of "mods" or user-created files. By all means, it´s nice that people do such things, but for me personally, I notice very quickly imperfections or bugs. Besides that, is also the fact that mods can quickly introduce other bugs, not present in DCS vanilla otherwise. That´s also why I push for a official request.

 

WIth that said, thanks for the suggestion nevertheless!

[SharpeXB]

11 minutes ago, zerO_crash said:

 

As a perfectionist, I have never been a fan of "mods" or user-created files. By all means, it´s nice that people do such things, but for me personally, I notice very quickly imperfections or bugs. Besides that, is also the fact that mods can quickly introduce other bugs, not present in DCS vanilla otherwise. That´s also why I push for a official request.

 

WIth that said, thanks for the suggestion nevertheless!

I agree about unofficial mods being a potential source of trouble in the game. The type of utility I’m thinking about would be used outside the game on a tablet. I’ve seen similar things in other sims. 
But yeah the F10 map in DCS could have an “authentic” mode. 
Many DLC campaigns like the WWII ones usually have an authentic type map on your kneeboard. So this is certainly something mission creators can do. 

[zerO_crash]

34 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I agree about unofficial mods being a potential source of trouble in the game. The type of utility I’m thinking about would be used outside the game on a tablet. I’ve seen similar things in other sims. 
But yeah the F10 map in DCS could have an “authentic” mode. 
Many DLC campaigns like the WWII ones usually have an authentic type map on your kneeboard. So this is certainly something mission creators can do. 

Absolutely, we are on point here, no doubt! If I was using TIR, then a tablet strapped to my leg with a downloaded clean maps (+ different layers and documents) would long ago have been working. The thing is, I am running with VR. That then, becomes inadequate. Even if the G2 (or ang VR with in-side-out tracking for that matter) would allow you to swap between program/camera-view with one button press, it wouldn't be good enough due to the resolution of the cameras.

 

Ultimately, I see this request, as one that allow for expanded capability (make notes on a separate page, accept documents of different formats to be read by the kneeboard (e.g. pdf?), etc...) within DCS. Because of these instruments lacking in DCS, the whole aspect of planning/briefing/carrying out orders/debriefing gets "lost in translation". It forces one to do all this work outside of DCS and VR, and this is in particular true for VR-users. 
 

I know that ED have a plan here, no doubt. The thread is really to open the doors for whatever suggestions might come in, and generally help as much as we can with the ideas and user perception (especially us who have hardware not as widely distributed yet).

 

Another big component of this system (specifically the modern/tablet one), will be the information flow and command structure, when the strategic component get implemented (resourcing, ground war, the whole shebang...). In the event of a modern scenario, you will want to have atleast a limited perception on what the situation is. This can be as basic as e.g. a pre-defined email/radio transmission/etc... being relayed to commander/relevant flights about the status of a defined region/airfield/structure. Whether it is captured, destroyed or so.

 

I imagine that at some point, ED will want to implement a basic networking (military internet) capability. If this gets implemented at some point, then it would, no doubt, allow for sending emails and text messages between participants (in an orginized way). I am thinking very far forward, but that just signals the need to put in place a system that is future-proof in terms of modularity.

 

The most pressing right now, is getting the basic map revised for a historical/current and current/modern aspect. All the fancy stuff can come down the line.

[Tippis]

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

You can do this by pressing LAlt and clicking on the map. It brings up the coordinate you can then enter into the CDU

That's a poor work-around, not a proper pre-programming interface. The Harrier and Viggen offer more useful and sensible implementations for how you can transfer map coordinates into the flight computer — not by stupidly poking keys for hours on end, but by doing the thing that a computer does: marking on a map and feeding directly into the plane via data transfer. That's what it's there for: to remove the pointless busywork.

 

6 hours ago, zerO_crash said:

The big question here would be whether to extract maps in with different zoom-aspects, such that a user can selected through the F-10 menu (e.g.) which specific map he/she wants. If you expect to fly a short mission, you can chose a more detalied and zoomed-in map. If you intend to fly a longer distance, you chose a map with less detail, albeit with more conveniant coverage (allows to jump look around the map faster, than a zoomed-in one). In essence, this would require extracting 2-3 layers from the current AWACS-view at different zoom levels (again, think here of Mi-24´s doppler map - you chose one zoom level, and the you stay with it).

A reasonably sensible and UI-intuitive solution would be to just offer a map rectangle tool that you can draw while on the ground, and have that be what gets fed into your kneeboard. The kneeboard pages would still be static, but could be replaced dynamically during downtime without having to go through the mission editor flight planning process. With some kind of reasonable option for subdivisions of that rectangle, you'd get your fixed zoom level: a huge square with just 3 subdivision means you get a coarse map, but only 3 pages to flip between. A smaller rectangle with tons of subdivisions means lots of detail, but suddenly you have two dozen map pages to keep track of.