Upgrade recommendations

[Buzzer1977]

Hi,

i'm currently running my rig on a RTX 3090 and a Ryzen9 5950x with 128 GB DDR4. My son currently has a almost decade old GTX960 on a Ryzen 7 5800x3d, also with 128 GB of DDR4.

My son really needs a new Graphics card to go VR, so i'm considering the following options:
1.) Buy him a AMD RX7900 xtx
Problem: The 7k9 had or still has serious issues with VR titles. Are these fixed with recent drivers  especially for running DCS?
Pro: It's only €1k

2.) Buy me a 4090 and pass on my 3090 to my son
Problem: It's $$$
Pro: I could wait until the 5090 is released and the prices may drop a bit for the 4090. But seeing the high $$$ for old 3090s i doubt there will be a large price drop after the 5090 release.

3.) Wait and buy me a 5090 or RX8000 and pass on my 3090 to my son
Problem: Unclear when, what and how much it'll be. Especially if it'll require faster bus then PCIe 4.0 to perform. After experiencing the performance issues with the 3090 on PCIe 3.0 instead PCIe 4.0 i wonder how much running a RTX 5000 series might have issues running on a slower bus.

I'm really torn apart what to do. It's only 6-8 month until the new stuff get's released and i'm therfor currently tending towards option 3.)

Any suggestions?

Regards buzzer1977

[Tomcat388th]

I bought a used 6950XT that I have been very happy with.  My Pc specs are similar to your sons  and I use a Quest Pro

[WipeUout]

The 5090 might be close to impossible to get early on, or at a very high price.  I think that your option 3 is farther in time.

Consider a 4080 for your son?  Price is not so bad, performance is excellent for VR.

If cost is an issue, got for a 4070Ti Super which is close to 4080 performance with a lower price around 800$.  You could get two of those cards for the price of a 4090... just saying.

 

 

[Aapje]

I would pick between these options:

4.) Get a 4080 Super right now and pass on the 3090

5.) Get a 5080 in November or so and pass on the 3090

The 5090 will probably be even more halo and even more expensive. And it will probably be scalped a lot.

[diego999]

For a 5090 you're talking about a year at minimum. Probably a year and a half until you can get one in your hands.

As others have suggested, a 4070ti Super is a good alternative right now. Enough VRAM, good performance, decent price.

[Rayzer]

Hi,

I would like a recommendation and/or trouble shooting advice. I'm not new to flight simulators nor am I new to DCS. Having said that, I've purchased every US aircraft, planes and helicopters, and many terrains such as the Nevada Test Range, Marianas, and several others. I've yet to complete a single mission, in fact I doubt if I have 1 hour total flying time. My first issue was getting my controls to work. I solved that with new hardware. I recently purchased a VR headset, Meta Quest 3, hoping to have an easier way to look around the cockpit and outside than using the keyboard or hat controller. I previously tried TrackIR 5 with the ball cap set up, tried it, liked it until I got "airsick"! My VR set up, using the wire link, takes forever to load a scenario/mission, then when it does instead of being "in the cockpit" I'm sitting way above the plane and have to look down through the canopy to barely see the controls much less read any instruments. Plus I'm think it's latency, but looking around is very, very jumpy with a lot of lag.  Trying to use my hands on the various knobs, switches and controls does not work at all. I thought it was a setting and/or setup issue, but I've tried many suggestions, YouTube tutorials and even set all the graphics settings to their lowest settings. I'm running the latest 2.9 DCS World version, but I don't have a SSLA option listed in my VR settings in the sim. Now I think my problem is my graphics card, all this but WORSE operation in Microsoft Flight Simulator and X-Plane 12 sims.

Here are my computer specs.

AMD Ryzen 7 8 core 3.70GHz CPU, 16 GB RAM, 64 bit Windows 10 Pro OS, msi NVIDIA GeForce GTX 970, 3 monitors (but DCS only works on the center one), Thrustmaster Warthog Control with HOTAS throttle and A10, F18 and F16 handles, Thrustmaster rudder pedals, Thrustmaster Cougar MFD display panels (2), and both Meta Quest 3 VR and TrackIR 5 with new TrackClip Pro. (TrackIR works much better than the ball cap clip, but having double getting the view centered, it looks slightly to the right when my head is looking forward!)

I'm retired Fire Service, (Chief), and currently part of the Department of Defense, US Army, Joint Service Honors Command performing military honors for deceased veterans.

Would installing a newer higher power graphics card work with my CPU and hardware setup to alive my frustrations with latency using the VR headset? Without VR I'm able to set graphics to high levels and have no latency issues, with VR I get extremely poor performance and the issue of sitting "on top the canopy"!

I'm on a fixed income and didn't want to pay for a RTX 4090. I will if it will solve my problems, but if a cheaper one will work for me that would be better. Also as soon as I can afford it I want to replace my 3 monitor setup to a single big screen curved monitor but I can't afford both graphics card (4090) and monitor right now.

Can anyone offer any suggestions, setup tips/solutions, or any other advice so I can actually get to fly this amazing flight simulator and MSFS and X-Plane?

Thanks for any help I can get!

[Phantom711]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Rayzer:

then when it does instead of being "in the cockpit" I'm sitting way above the plane

In the controls options for DCS you have to bind a button to „VR recenter“ (or something along those lines) or use the default keystroke. It should be under the „General“ or „UI“ tab.

 

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Rayzer:

Now I think my problem is my graphics card

Yes!

You are attempting to participate in a NASCAR race with a Toyota Prius. Your GPU is far faaaaaar below what you need for VR. You do not necessarily need a 4090 to solve your problem though. There already is some input in this thread here what GPUs might be a good choice.

EDIT: 16GB RAM is also a bit on the low side.

Edited April 28, 2024 by Phantom711

[kksnowbear]

17 minutes ago, Rayzer said:

I would like a recommendation and/or trouble shooting advice...

There's a lot to be covered in your request, but one thing's almost certain:  Your PC is, unfortunately, well below spec for what would be required for VR to behave.

Something I noted:  You specified a "Ryzen 7 8 core 3.70GHz" but to my knowledge there are (at least) two fairly different models of Ryzen 7 CPUs that are 8 core and have a base clock of 3.7Ghz.  So it would be helpful to nail down which one you're using.

If you want to use VR, my own personal opinion is you will need a fairly extensive upgrade - GPU and *probably* CPU (which will probably involve changing motherboards and possibly entail RAM as well - but this really [really] depends on the exact details - that's why I say you need to get that nailed down.  I can help if you'd like.)

Good news is, I don't personally believe you have to go all the way to a 4090 to get an upgrade substantial enough for decent VR performance.

(PS The sitting over the canopy thing is almost certainly a setup issue somewhere, but that's not an area of expertise for me so I'd leave that to someone more knowledgeable with the specific VR headset you're using).

Best of luck!

Edited April 28, 2024 by kksnowbear

[Rayzer]

How do I determine which Ryzen 7 CPU model I have installed to determine how extensive of an upgrade I need to do? If I don't use VR but TrackIR instead would such an extensive upgrade still be needed?

Thanks kksnowbear!

[kksnowbear]

I think it's accurate to say using a TrackIR-based system would require significantly less of a system/upgrade than a VR-bsed system would, generally and broadly.

On the Ryzen CPU:  Easy There's a nifty utility called CPU-Z you can download and it will tell you what model etc.  It's free, small, legit, and easy to install/use.  TBH it's more or less a basic staple on any machine I've built and very helpful to have:

https://www.cpuid.com/softwares/cpu-z.html

Looks like this when you run it:

Edited April 28, 2024 by kksnowbear

[Aapje]

@Rayzer

VR brings many challenges with it, including it being very demanding on hardware. And many people suffer from motion sickness, much more so than with TrackIR (many can resolve it by stopping when they get sick and slowly working up to tolerance). It can also be extremely fiddly.

TrackIR typically gives much less issues with motion sickness, but it can still happen. It typically seems to resolve itself fairly quickly.

Given that you seem to have given up after only 1 hour, I get the impression that you give up a bit too quickly if things don't work right away. You may want to first go back to TrackIR and give that some more chances. Like I said before, motion sickness is something most people can overcome, but it needs patience and not trying to force it.

That said, your hardware is quite old and even for flat screen, some upgrades seem to be a good idea. That can also help with the motion sickness, as low framerates and stutter can make motion sickness much more likely & worse.

You probably have a Ryzen 2700X. Check that to be sure in your System Information application. CPU-Z like the previous person mentioned also works well, but you can also just use the built-in application to check.

If it is a 2700X, the good news is that you can get a huge boost for relatively little, by upgrading to a 5800X3D processor. Just be aware that you probably need to update your BIOS first for it to work.

I would also upgrade to 32 GB DDR4 memory, which is quite cheap.

Your video card is ten year old. If you stick with flat screen gaming, something like a 4070 or 4070 Super would be a huge improvement. But for VR, even a 4090 tends to leave something on the table, since VR is so demanding.

Edited April 28, 2024 by Aapje

[kksnowbear]

CPU-Z offers far more usable info than Windows System info - not the least of which is you can get the motherboard model and BIOS version, which in turn allows identifying whether/what upgrades are possible.

[Aapje]

System Information shows that stuff as well.

@Rayzer

You can also post screenshots of either System Information or CPU-Z if you want even more detailed info, like what exact BIOS updates you need for an upgrade, or whether you have such a low budget motherboard that upgrading the entire thing may be better.

[kksnowbear]

Really? What I posted above (BIOS version and motherboard model) were only examples...does System Info show memory timings etc like CPU-Z does (both what is currently running *and* the Serial Presence Detect JEDEC/XMP/EXPO values)?

Edited April 28, 2024 by kksnowbear

[Aapje]

7 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

Really? What I posted above (BIOS version and motherboard model) were only examples...does System Info show memory timings etc like CPU-Z does?

How is that relevant for giving upgrade advice?

[kksnowbear]

Suppose someone's RAM is not setup/running properly or they've mixed modules, etc?   Seen that many times (or any of a number of other problems)...and again, these are also just examples.  I don't think System Info will tell you those things.

Still...no one's saying System Info is useless, relax.  But it is obvious it doesn't report some useful info.

(edited, removed comment re: model number)

Edited April 28, 2024 by kksnowbear

[Rayzer]

kksnowbear, can you pm me for cpu-z download/install help?

 

[Aapje]

My advice is just to toss out the old RAM and put in a new 32 GB kit for $53. The 5800X3D doesn't need any faster than DDR4-3200 and doesn't care much about timings.

The question is more whether it is worth saving his motherboard. 

[Aapje]

Another option is just to go for a platform upgrade, which will provide more of an upgrade path for the future, but will cost more. I also don't know if the gentleman is comfortable with doing a full system build or has someone to do it for him.

Edited April 28, 2024 by Aapje

[kksnowbear]

I think it's widely accepted that the Zen4 CPUs work best with 3600 CAS 16 modules.

Besides that, he may not even need new RAM.  Maybe he's already got something decent.  No point in tossing it out just because System Info doesn't tell you anything about timings etc. 

Again, just a few points...

As for platform upgrades, etc....with the right advice and qualified help, those things are all addressed.

 

[Aapje]

4 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

I think it's widely accepted that the Zen4 CPUs work best with 3600 CAS 16 modules.

Not the X3D processors. Those are the exception to the rule that Ryzen is more memory sensitive. 

4 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

Besides that, he may not even need new RAM.

The 2700X doesn't even support 3200 memory, so he almost certainly has slow memory. And I would get 32 GB right now for flight simming, especially since the cost is so low.

But I'm waiting for the screenshots

[kksnowbear]

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.  Fact is another matter.  And speculation is pointless.

[Rayzer]

CPU and Memory

Edited April 28, 2024 by Rayzer

[Aapje]

@Rayzer

Please post a screenshot of the second tab as well (Mainboard)

 

@kksnowbear

People have tested it, including on this forum and the memory speed makes barely any difference for the 5800X3D: 

 

[kksnowbear]

If someone has a setup that already has 3600 RAM on it, and can offer a better deal than buying stuff piecemeal, how's it better?

@ Rayzer

You have a MSI X470 Gaming Pro Carbon.  It looks like the BIOS is current with that required to run a 5800X3D CPU.  So that's pretty much a 'drop in' upgrade - but it absolutely depends on whether you're comfortable doing that sort of thing.  I do strongly recommend seeking professional help if you're not certain.

Edited April 28, 2024 by kksnowbear