Mig-29S attacks 2 targets simultaneously?

[GGTharos]

The MiG-31 was the only aircraft capable of guiding multiple SARH (read: more than 1) to target simultaneously because it had an ESA.

 

If the MiG-29 radar truly did attempt such a thing, I wonder if they were accepting a 0.1pk or less to scare off a pair of bandits. No, seriously, please explain to me how it was expected to guide two SARH missiles to two separate targets. Talk to your friend if you like, but I'm really, really curious how you'd do it with an MSA.

 

The F-14 did it, but it did so by letting the AIM-54 home in on occasional reflections from its radar painting the targets - but terminal homing was ARH.

[GGTharos]

2003 - nearly 10 years after radar updates became available, and confirmed to be carrying R-77 - this is the N019ME probably. Topaz export.

 

Check text at this link

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_236.shtml

just below this pic:

Edited May 6, 2009 by GGTharos

[Vekkinho]

The MiG-31 was the only aircraft capable of guiding multiple SARH (read: more than 1) to target simultaneously because it had an ESA.

 

If the MiG-29 radar truly did attempt such a thing, I wonder if they were accepting a 0.1pk or less to scare off a pair of bandits. No, seriously, please explain to me how it was expected to guide two SARH missiles to two separate targets. Talk to your friend if you like, but I'm really, really curious how you'd do it with an MSA.

 

The F-14 did it, but it did so by letting the AIM-54 home in on occasional reflections from its radar painting the targets - but terminal homing was ARH.

 

Aaah, so finally there are some R-77 onboard MiG-29, I though it was the myth!

 

Back on the question, one of the standard standard MiG-29 payloads of Cold war was 1*R-27R, 1*R-27T, 4*R-60 or 4*R-73!

 

So I could have used radar to launch Alamo A...The other contact could be tracked by that same N019 but enagaged with Alamo B, so no need for inital launcher guidance for that one!

[topol-m]

Have to back GGTharos in this one. Most of the sources saying the the Mig-29`s radar allows simultaneous attack of 2 targets refer to the N019 but do not specify the exact version of the N019 family. I myself have not seen any serious info about the N019 able to do that and one of the improvements of the N019M is exactly that ability. All the new models since N019M allow multiple target attack (of 2 or 4 targets) so it seems very plausible that when they say N019 allows the attack of 2 targets they mean N019M.

[Vekkinho]

Yes but the data on N019 used with YuAF I have dates from 1990 and states 2 targets!

 

It says N019, not N019EA, N019EB or anything else!

[GGTharos]

Aaah, so finally there are some R-77 onboard MiG-29, I though it was the myth!

 

I think it's a bit more of a 'Russian MiGs had them' myth, and its a myth for only a certain period of time - in short I think there was some period of time where Russia said 'nyet' to R-77.

 

Back on the question, one of the standard standard MiG-29 payloads of Cold war was 1*R-27R, 1*R-27T, 4*R-60 or 4*R-73!

 

So I could have used radar to launch Alamo A...The other contact could be tracked by that same N019 but enagaged with Alamo B, so no need for inital launcher guidance for that one!

 

Do you really think so? That implies you can do the following:

1. Slave the IR seeker off of TWS (not impossible, but how do you know its tracking? LA I guess) - and launch that missile first. This means that particular target is probably fairly close.

2. Step to the next target

3. STT that target

4. Launch 27R

 

I'm just not convinced that you could do all that, there's nothing in the manual I have that describes a target step function, or slave more than a single weapon to a sensor - or more to the point, the FCS only allowed you to select a single weapon, or a 2-weapon salvo, but it would slave this weapon to your primary sensor (EOS or Radar).

 

Basically I don't see anything in the manual that helps with this process for what I have. Later radars added such functions.

[GGTharos]

Then your radar might be an ME (the M was limited production, but perhaps Russia handed those over? Who knows - that in and of itself would be interesting, and now it's perhaps a bit of surprise then that 77's weren't purchased for it).

 

Yes but the data on N019 used with YuAF I have dates from 1991 and states 2 targets!

 

It says N019, not N019EA, N019EB or anything else!

Edited May 6, 2009 by GGTharos

[Vekkinho]

Then your radar might be an ME (the M was limited production, but perhaps Russia handed those over? Who knows).

 

But IIRC ME wasn't produced in '87-'88 when 12 MiG-29A arrived from Russia :huh:

[GGTharos]

Neither was M. Could have received an upgrade.

 

There are three possibilities:

 

1. You got an upgrade. Enough said. :D

2. Someone decide that a possible upgrade should be refered to as current operating ability - such a thing had happened with the Su-33 and Jane's.

3. N019 always had TWS capable of tracking 2 targets - I find this very unlikely, or it was a very poor and not useful feature at the time (can't use it with SARH, and Ts100 was not a very good processor so TWS would be problematic - see Ts100M upgrade which fixed a LOT of problems)

 

But IIRC ME wasn't produced in '87-'88 when 12 MiG-29A arrived from Russia :huh:

[Alfa]

Vekkinho - GG is right :) .

 

The radar routines as depicted in LO:FC for the Su-27 and MiG-29 are in fact very accurate.

 

The baseline N019 and N001 radars cannot engage more than a single target at a time. A mechanically actuated radar antenna cannot scan quickly enough between two targets to provide terminal target illumination for SARH missiles - and at the time when these radars were concieved ARH missiles were not available.

 

For this reason the WCS is set up in such a way that the radar must enter STT(single target track) prior to missile launch - either directly from scan modes via manual target selection or automatically from SNP mode when prioritised contact falls within missile launch parameters.

[Alfa]

Then your radar might be an ME (the M was limited production, but perhaps Russia handed those over? Who knows - that in and of itself would be interesting, and now it's perhaps a bit of surprise then that 77's weren't purchased for it).

 

IIRC the Yugoslavian MiG-29 version is the MiG-29B - a downgraded version for export to non-Warsaw pact countries :) .

[GGTharos]

Interesting - so there's a lot of disinformation out there - which we already knew.

[Alfa]

Neither was M. Could have received an upgrade.

 

There are three possibilities:

 

2. Someone decide that a possible upgrade should be refered to as current operating ability - such a thing had happened with the Su-33 and Jane's.

 

It also happened with a whole lot of other things - such as numbers of SMTs in Russian serivce.....decade old expectations that never materialised.

 

3. N019 always had TWS capable of tracking 2 targets - I find this very unlikely, or it was a very poor and not useful feature at the time (can't use it with SARH, and Ts100 was not a very good processor so TWS would be problematic - see Ts100M upgrade which fixed a LOT of problems)

 

GG the N019 TWS(SNP) can track up to 10 targets simultaneously - what it cannot do is to launch missiles from it ;) .

[GGTharos]

Yeah, I actually meant TWS ... SNP is something a little different I think. :D

[Alfa]

Interesting - so there's a lot of disinformation out there - which we already knew.

 

Well I think it is more down to misconceptions about information :) .

[Wilde]

The baseline N019 and N001 radars

 

seem to be the ones being simulated in LOFC. For those the simulation is doing fairly good. I, and a couple of other posters probably too, am not so sure this is realistic though. The game is depicting Su-30s and AIM-120C. Both of which entered service only in the 2nd half of the 1990s. Furthermore the Su-30 came along with the N011. While surely there were quite some old Su-27S around in that timeframe I would also *think* that by then some equipment had been updated already.

 

Also with the incident of Tolkachev I would assume, that every pre-1986 N019 would have been considered obsolete by the Russians. I'd expect them to upgrade their MiGs as a consequence. Again, with the game's timeframe not being prior to 1996 there was more than enough time to do so. Even the former NVA-MiGs being simulated could have been upgraded.

 

I know, it sounds very speculative. Those Russians are some mystery-mongers. There are probably all kinds of evolution steps of those planes in service somewhere. Nobody here really knows. This also makes it difficult to simulate it properly.

[Vekkinho]

Vekkinho - GG is right :) .

 

The radar routines as depicted in LO:FC for the Su-27 and MiG-29 are in fact very accurate.

 

The baseline N019 and N001 radars cannot engage more than a single target at a time. A mechanically actuated radar antenna cannot scan quickly enough between two targets to provide terminal target illumination for SARH missiles - and at the time when these radars were concieved ARH missiles were not available.

 

Can't say those radars are modeled accurate because both of them are missing one important feature called GCI datalink.

 

I'll try to translate some parts of the text I have on control by GCI datalink of a I019 (N019), but it's in Serbian as it dates from Yugoslavia period and I might use wrong technical terms in English so please understand! It says:

 

When operated by GCI datalink in Head-on search (TWS?!?) mode, 6 line scan is used and direction of the scan can be modified and pointed directly by the GCI. The scan area differs in azimuth depending on the range. Other important data like distance to target, target speed heading and altitude is provided by GCI as well. This is the primary search method of I019 as it supports dual targeting channel along the scan (is this the STT?!!). When a pilot locks on a GCI datalinked target data is being processed by N2 Argon Ts100. It takes up to 10 seconds to process the data depending on the signal strenght and general conditions. This allows manual search and engagement of other targets with maintaining a GCI mode lock.

 

Parts in bold need some clarification, is it track + scan or 2*track + scan along?!

 

This makes me think it's possibble to search and attack another target at the same time, if there's already one locked up in GCI mode and further search is possible in manual mode, I believe a lock is possible too!

 

 

[GGTharos]

Duel targeting I think means the ability to use IRST+Radar on the same target (two channels) or two missiles per target (two dlink channels).

 

I don't think we'll be able to clarify this here :P

 

As for your speculation, Wilde ... we know this: Only now has Russia started upgrading its fighters. Previously it all seemed to just be talk.

[Vekkinho]

I'm not saying it wasn't "patched" version of a N019 in use with YuAF Fulcrums but in YuAF documents it's referred to as a N019 without any additional letters.

 

Yugoslav Fulcrums arrived in late '87/early '88 and total of 14 birds were delivered (12 9-12 + 2 9-51) so there indeed may be a chance these came with some sort of upgraded radar installed after Tolkachev shared N019 data. But every single document of YuAF from that period of time that's covering MiG-29 operation is calling it I019 and says it can track 2 targets at the same time.

 

Edit:

Here's the first photo of all of them at the same place:

Edited May 7, 2009 by Vekkinho

[GGTharos]

I think it is a mis-interpretation.

 

But every single document of YuAF from that period of time that's covering MiG-29 operation is calling it I019 and says it can track 2 targets at the same time.

[Wilde]

As for your speculation, Wilde ... we know this: Only now has Russia started upgrading its fighters. Previously it all seemed to just be talk.

 

Or the other way around. We only know about those 2 or 3 regiments that have been upgraded to 27SM standards. And we know there are several evolutions of radar and other equipment. It is just unknown to which or even how many planes these were fitted.

 

But whatever. The former JG73 of the Bundeswehr specifies its MiG-29G being able to track only single targets: http://www.fabulousfulcrums.de/fulcrum_a_e.htm

And on top of that they say the MiGs for the Warsaw-Pact countries were superior to the exported ones.

[Geier]

Oh no ... why are there Ka-50's hovering outside my window ;)

Ka 50 was hovering, but their internal stuff is still not known completely.

There's the same picture with SM/35. The knowledge is near the info we can get from advertisements:(

[Alfa]

Wilde,

 

I wrote a long reply to your previous post, but something went wrong when I tried to post it and it vanished. So I will try again and merge it with this quote :) .

 

..seem to be the ones[baseline N019 and N001] being simulated in LOFC.

 

Yes it is :) .

 

For those the simulation is doing fairly good. I, and a couple of other posters probably too, am not so sure this is realistic though. The game is depicting Su-30s and AIM-120C. Both of which entered service only in the 2nd half of the 1990s.

 

The Su-30 was a dedicated interceptor variant of the basic Su-27 that never entered service with the Russian airforce - it was proposed and a handful or so(5 or 6 airframes) flew from operational units on a sort of trial basis, but in the end the Russian airforce declined - either because they weren't interested in it(having the MiG-31 for the purpose) or simply because they couldn't afford to induct it at the time. Anyway, Sukhoi reclaimed the airframes and used them as basis for prototypes of advanced multirole export variants(Su-30MK).

 

Furthermore the Su-30 came along with the N011.

 

There is no Su-30 with N011 ;) . The N011 has(had) a planar slotted array antenna and was NIIP's answer to NIIR's N010 "Zhuk". The N011 was only fitted to the initial Su-35(T-10M) prototypes from the early nineties. In connection with the export of the Su-30MKI, NIIP developed a new version of the radar(N011M), which differed from the initial N011 by having a PESA antenna mounted on the existing hydro-mechanical drive. AFAIK only the Indian Su-30MKI was fitted with this radar, while other Su-30MK exports(including the Chinese Su-30MKK) have an upgraded version of the N001 called N001VE, which is the one also used by the Su-27SM ugrade recently accepted into Russian service.

 

While surely there were quite some old Su-27S around in that time frame I would also *think* that by then some equipment had been updated already.

 

In "that time frame"?! - Wilde, some 90% of the Su-27s in service today are those "old Su-27S". Aside from the Su-33 which entered operational service with the Russian navy in 1994(although not officially accepted until 1998 ), the only other new Su-27 variant to enter service is the above mentioned Su-27SM.....and that was very recently(within the last couple of years) and still only account for a very small part of the Su-27 fleet. There are other in the process of being inducted - such as the Su-27IB(Su-34) and the brand new Su-35 version of which 3 or 4 prototypes exist(well one crashed, so I guess its down to 3 now).

 

Anyway, the point is that Lock-on actually depicts several Russian aircraft variants that, to this day, remain in prototype status. Now I am fine with the inclusion of these into the sim - because they aren't "X-planes" built merely for testing new technologies, but actual combat aircraft meant for operational service. What I don't agree with is to argue for a change to the capabilities of the in-service types based on speculations that the Russians may have secretly implemented new technology.

 

Also with the incident of Tolkachev I would assume, that every pre-1986 N019 would have been considered obsolete by the Russians. I'd expect them to upgrade their MiGs as a consequence. Again, with the game's timeframe not being prior to 1996 there was more than enough time to do so. Even the former NVA-MiGs being simulated could have been upgraded.

 

You jump from 1986 to 1996 as if nothing major happened in the meantime that could affect such military plans - Wilde - the country that developed and built the MiG-29 and Su-27 went bankrupt and ceased to exist in 1991!. Considering those circumstances and the end of the cold war, I don't understand how you can "expect" Russia to have secretly spent billions on military upgrades......there were neither the funds nor the urge to do so.

 

Or the other way around. We only know about those 2 or 3 regiments that have been upgraded to 27SM standards.

 

2 or 3 regiments?......I doubt the current force is anyway near that.

 

And we know there are several evolutions of radar and other equipment. It is just unknown to which or even how many planes these were fitted.

 

Was the advent of the Su-27SM kept secret? ;) - if anything the trend has been to jump the gun and proclaim overly optimistic time frames for all sorts of new acquisitions and upgrades that never materialized.

 

But whatever. The former JG73 of the Bundeswehr specifies its MiG-29G being able to track only single targets: http://www.fabulousfulcrums.de/fulcrum_a_e.htm

And on top of that they say the MiGs for the Warsaw-Pact countries were superior to the exported ones.

 

Yes although you could say that they were all exported - what they are referring to is the difference between the version exported to Warsaw pact countries and the one(MiG-29B) exported to friendly non-Warsaw pact countries such as Yugoslavia and Cuba(I believe). Hungary also received this version as part of post-Soviet debt payment.

[EvilBivol-1]

Two regiments (four squadrons) is a good estimate of Su-27SMs. The second regiment being "in progress." :)

[Kuky]

Showing here:

http://plane.spottingworld.com/Mikoyan_MiG-29#MiG-29_in_Yugoslav_and_Serbian_service

 

In SENSORS section, says MiG-29A has basic N019 radar which can track fighter size aircraft up to 70km head on aspect and 35km rear aspect, and for bomber size aircraft this range is doubled. Some 48 aircraft were upgraded to MiG-29S and use N019M Topaz radar which increased tracking range but also allowed suport for R-77 missiles and tracking of 10 targets and simultanious engagement of 2 with R-77 missile.

 

The EOS could be used slaved with radar but also independently meaning you could lock one target with EOS and another with radar.

 

Another thing reading there is that MiG-29S was upgraded to carry 8 missiles (most likely pair of IR on one pylon)

 

In LockOn there are no difference in radar performance for MiG-29A and MiG-29S so I guess this should be fixed in patch also.