About Air threats in RWR

[Somu]

Hı. I have noticed that a2g threats sams and aaa shown correctly in rwr for example if thereis a sa2 shown ljke 2 but bandits shown only in unknown status not like mig 23 like 23 or mig 21 like 21.

İs this a bug or F4's system feature.

Thank you.

[Skyron]

You also cant hear lock or missle launch (FOX1) either from air threats (like Μig21s).
 

[Zabuzard]

It is correct behavior and highly dependent on which system specifically you are running against.
The RWR has no magic way of knowing a missile launch or being able to detect a certain aircraft type, it cant cheat.

It measures frequencies of the various emitters and classifies then based on their properties.
Systems are usually working quite differently. Some do not change when they are tracking, some do. Its quite complex.

You can find more details and explanations in the other threads about the RWR. We are planning to expand our manual on it.

[skywalker22]

On 6/3/2024 at 2:12 PM, Zabuzard said:

The RWR has no magic way of knowing a missile launch or being able to detect a certain aircraft type, it cant cheat.
It measures frequencies of the various emitters and classifies then based on their properties.
Systems are usually working quite differently. Some do not change when they are tracking, some do. Its quite complex.
 

Recognizing Search vs. Track Mode:

The AN/ALR-46 can distinguish between radar in search mode and track mode based on the following factors:

Pulse Repetition Frequency (PRF): Search radars typically use lower PRF with longer pulse durations to cover a wide area and detect multiple targets at various ranges. Track radars use higher PRF with shorter pulse durations to provide more accurate and continuous tracking of a specific target.

Signal Strength and Duration: Search radar signals may be detected intermittently as the radar scans across different sectors. Track radar signals are more continuous and focused on a specific target, providing a consistent signal strength and direction.

Frequency and Modulation: Some radars may change frequencies or modulation schemes when switching from search to track mode. The RWR can analyze these changes to help identify the radar's operational mode.

--

Ground-Based Radars (SAMs):

The AN/ALR-46 could reliably detect the switch from search to track mode for ground-based radar systems like those used in SAMs.

These ground-based radars had distinct and recognizable changes in their signal characteristics (e.g., PRF, pulse width) when switching from search to track mode, which the AN/ALR-46 was designed to identify.

Airborne Radars (Contemporary Aircraft like MiG-19 and MiG-21):

The AN/ALR-46 could detect radar emissions from these aircraft, but it was less reliable at specifically identifying the switch from search to track mode.

The radars on these aircraft did exhibit changes when switching modes, but these changes were often subtler and less pronounced than those of ground-based systems.

There was no consistent and reliable warning from the AN/ALR-46 specifically indicating a switch from search to track mode for airborne radars. The system might detect the presence of the radar and provide general warnings, but it did not consistently distinguish between search and track modes for airborne threats.

Summary:

For ground-based radars (like SAMs): The AN/ALR-46 could reliably detect and warn about the switch from search to track mode.

For airborne radars (like those on MiG-19 and MiG-21): The AN/ALR-46 could detect radar emissions, but it was not reliably able to detect and warn about the specific switch from search to track mode. The warnings provided were more general regarding the presence of radar emissions rather than specific mode changes.

Edited June 4, 2024 by skywalker22

[primus_TR]

The RWR on the F4 never (that is NEVER) detects the radar switching from search to tracking/launch from aerial platforms. With SAMs, it detects it correctly, but NEVER with aerial platforms. I'd love to see a track of any instance where the rwr warns tracking by an aircraft. So, it might be prudent to look into it, rather than brushing it off.

22 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

The RWR has no magic way of knowing a missile launch or being able to detect a certain aircraft type, it cant cheat.

 

[Zabuzard]

Please refer to the other threads on the subject where JNelson provides detailed explanation on various situations where the said platform is not changing the signals in a way the RWR would be able to detect it.

As hinted, we will expand the manual on the topic to prevent confusion on whats going on exactly.

[skywalker22]

7 hours ago, primus_TR said:

The RWR on the F4 never (that is NEVER) detects the radar switching from search to tracking/launch from aerial platforms. With SAMs, it detects it correctly, but NEVER with aerial platforms. I'd love to see a track of any instance where the rwr warns tracking by an aircraft. So, it might be prudent to look into it, rather than brushing it off.

 

Do you know what might be the reasons for ALR-46 not detecting transition from search to track of the airborne radars?

Maybe @Zabuzard and @JNelson can help us out here to determine how ALR-46 was working exactly for the airborne radars.

[primus_TR]

11 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

Do you know what might be the reasons for ALR-46 not detecting transition from search to track of the airborne radars?

Maybe @Zabuzard and @JNelson can help us out here to determine how ALR-46 was working exactly for the airborne radars.

I have read the team's explanations but it is still not clear to me whether the current situation (no detection of radar tracking/launch by aerial platforms) represents the intended behavior and will not change. It should be able to detect, per @JNelson, when a radar (including an aircraft radar) switches from search mode to tracking mode. He also said they are working on detection of certain known missile threats. 

It is good to see the team is interacting with the community on the perceived issues, including this one. I love this module. It is very well made and a blast to fly. I'm looking forward to seeing it getting better. 

[Zabuzard]

As others hinted, not all radar platforms change to a "classic track mode" when they track or guide a missile. Not all of that can be detected by the RWR.

And in some cases it's also DCS doing odd things, especially on AI.

Whether this is the case here or not, someone like JNelson will be able to explain in more detail.
That said, we will of course investigate the situation and report back what's going on, providing explanation if it works as intended :)

[1qsb28]

1 hour ago, Zabuzard said:

And in some cases it's also DCS doing odd things, especially on AI.

I wanted to ask about this with regard to the "Activity" and "missile launch" warning lights. 

I have been flying almost exclusively against the SA-2 and I am seeing the Activity and Launch warnings illuminate simultaneously 100% of the time.  if my memory serves correctly, the Activity light should be illuminated when the fansong C-band missile command transmitter is turned on to the low-power mode....the Launch light is triggered when the operator switches to the High-power missile command mode.  Given this it seem the activity light should illuminate for some short period of time BEFORE the launch light.  Also, the SEESAM mod would generate a "singer-low" and "singer-high" warble tone based on if the missile command transmitter was sending guidance corrections or not.

progression during a standard launch sequence would have been E or G band acquisition (low rattle snake), E or G lock up (hight rattle snake), missile guidance switch on low power (Activity Light), missile guidance switched to high power (Steady Launch Light w/low singer warble), missile guidance corrections begin broadcasting (Flashing Launch Light W/Singer high warble).  ...The actual launch of the missile could take place at any point during the process up to just before guidance corrections begin being transmitted and no change in threat display was actually based off the launch its self. 

are these features based on command guidance to be added the the ALR-46 at some point later or is it currently feature complete?  I realize that DCS probably does not model all of these mode changes but do they model the function of the missile command signal at all or is it limited to search/lock/launch?

 

P.S.  I have also found that the HANDOFF button, while opening the audio of the priority threat, does not step through the different threats if more than one is presented.

Edited June 5, 2024 by 1qsb28