R-73 max range launch and LA

[topol-m]

There is something wrong with the launch autorization of the R-73. I`ve noticed it before and now i`ve done several fast battles 1vs1 and here`s the case. 1 Su-27 vs 1 Mirage 2000 test scenario (the former armed with R-73, the latter with R 550), both head on, at 3600m. My R-73 max range mark is at 12 km, but while the mirage is closing in i don`t get LA even though the distance is less than 12 km. In fact i finally recieve LA at 5 km at the same time i hear the incoming missile alert. So my first question is: WTH? Why can`t i shoot in the 12-5km interval? Second one: how come that on this altitude, head on, the R-73 has the same range as the R 550 as it should have a greater one? I reloaded and tried to climb to 6000 m, to see if there is any difference - nope, again LA at 5km and again R 550 launch at the same time. That should be the place for the next WTH...

[Case]

My R-73 max range mark is at 12 km, but while the mirage is closing in i don`t get LA even though the distance is less than 12 km. In fact i finally recieve LA at 5 km at the same time i hear the incoming missile alert. So my first question is: WTH? Why can`t i shoot in the 12-5km interval?

Until you get the launch authorization, you are tracking the bandit by either your radar or the EOS. It is only until the seeker of the R-73 itself can see the bandit when you get the launch authorization and allowing the missile to track the bandit. Especially in a head-on engagement the heat signature will be smaller because you won't directly see his engines.

 

Edit: Try to approach the bandit from the side, you should get the launch authorization earlier.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Case

[borchi_2b]

or aim well ahead and oerwrite your weaponssystem to shoot the r73 at a range of 12, thats what i would recomment. i also shoot it a ccouple times at 17, which is really really far, but if the enemy is stupied enough, he eats my missile

:-)

[Boberro]

R-73's seeker itself must lock target.... same with ET.

 

You can do maddog, sometimes works and it is funny to do with R-73.

[Case]

or aim well ahead and oerwrite your weaponssystem to shoot the r73 at a range of 12, thats what i would recomment. i also shoot it a ccouple times at 17, which is really really far, but if the enemy is stupied enough, he eats my missile

But if the enemy is smart enough he will see your launch and you have just wasted a missile...

[topol-m]

Well i`ve tried to overide the LA - at 10 km with 2 missiles fired no hit. He might have fooled them with flares though.

[topol-m]

Edit: Try to approach the bandit from the side, you should get the launch authorization earlier.

 

In tail aspect i get LA at 4 km :huh: And at 6 km when i approach it from the side. Something`s not right here...

Edited May 7, 2009 by topol-m

[Case]

In tail aspect i get LA at 4 km And at 6 km when i approach it from the side. Something`s not right here...

Yes, but what is Rmax in those situations? It will be much less than 12 km, so fractionally you get the LA earlier.

[GGTharos]

In tail aspect you are limited kinematically (ie. the distance the missile must fly to hit the target. In a tail chase aspect this distance is MORE than the range to the target).

 

From the side you will be limited kinematically as well, but the range will be usually longer than tail-chase because the target is not running directly away from you, so the closure is greater.

 

In forward aspect you are limited by the seeker: If an aircraft approaches you head-on, possibly at minimum throttle, or at least out of afterburner, the seeker won't be able to lock onto it until close.

 

In tail aspect i get LA at 4 km :huh: And at 6 km when i approach it from the side. Something`s not right here...

[topol-m]

Ok at 9000m test the results are confusing too - LA at 5 km head on :doh:, 9 km when attacking from the side, 6 km in tail aspect. Not much of a difference. Either the missile is seriously downgraded in the game or i`m missing something...

[GGTharos]

Yeah, you're missing the fact that head-on, IR signature can be very small ;)

 

Head-on it is best to use a radar missile.

[topol-m]

In tail aspect you are limited kinematically (ie. the distance the missile must fly to hit the target. In a tail chase aspect this distance is MORE than the range to the target).

 

From the side you will be limited kinematically as well, but the range will be usually longer than tail-chase because the target is not running directly away from you, so the closure is greater.

 

In forward aspect you are limited by the seeker: If an aircraft approaches you head-on, possibly at minimum throttle, or at least out of afterburner, the seeker won't be able to lock onto it until close.

 

Yep i understand this but the problem is not in the difference between ranges (from tail, head on, side launch), but in the LA showing too late, and in overall distance at which i can launch this missile. I think in reality it should be far greater.

[Case]

Yep i understand this but the problem is not in the difference between ranges (from tail, head on, side launch), but in the LA showing too late, and in overall distance at which i can launch this missile. I think in reality it should be far greater.

As was said before, the reason you get LA so late is because the seeker of the missile has nothing to lock onto... only when you get close enough will it be able to pick up the target... so even though the missile has enough energy to reach the target at 12 km in a head on engagement, it will only be able to guide towards it when you get within 5.

[GGTharos]

I don't think so. Missile seeker aperture is fairly small, and a reasonably 'cold' aircraft can be very difficult to detect/lock onto by this seeker. This is fairly typical of that era of seekers.

 

To make it abundantly clear: In the head on situation, you get LA when the SEEKER locks on, which is usually inside missile max range. You have two conditions to fulfill: Seeker lock AND range.

 

 

Edit: Ninja'ed

[topol-m]

As was said before' date=' the reason you get LA so late is because the seeker of the missile has nothing to lock onto... only when you get close enough will it be able to pick up the target... so even though the missile has enough energy to reach the target at 12 km in a head on engagement, it will only be able to guide towards it when you get within 5.[/quote']

 

Ok but this missile should be able to lock on a target far beyond some miserable 9 km at 9000m.

[GGTharos]

That is not necessarily correct ;)

ED has used a reasonable formula for IR signature detection, at least from what I have seen of IR detection math. IR missiles really ARE that insensitive to head-on geometries.

[topol-m]

We`ve discussed this in other threads but the specs say R-73 - 30 km. Let`s say its not 30 lets say its 20-25... Also the frenchie should not fire the R 550 at the same time i fire R-73.

[504Goon]

That would be head on kinematic range with the best possible conditions for the launch.

[GGTharos]

I'm sure you can get this against a huge head-on IR target like a bomber. But a fighter, not necessarily. And I'm not sure why you think he shouldn't be able to launch the R-550 at the same time ... missile seeker sensitivity was pretty similar for all sides.

 

We`ve discussed this in other threads but the specs say R-73 - 30 km. Let`s say its not 30 lets say its 20-25... Also the frenchie should not fire the R 550 at the same time i fire R-73.

[RvEYoda]

There is some nice information in the exported mig29 manual about missile

seeker ranges, unfortunately the R73 is not included in the graphs, probably

it's very classified. However some basics are known about it, and I have

I have spoken to a pilot testfiring it on what I recall he compared to a

*drone sized flare*, basically a Shit big target. This target was tracked when

reaching about 30 km.

 

From what i recall this was a clear day.

Given knowledge about other seeker performances, a good estimate head on against

below AB fighter size target...hm....maybe 5 nm seeker range? i also compare this

to modern (not officially in use) fighter IRSTs apertures, where such maximum tracking range is around 10 nm

Edited May 7, 2009 by =RvE=Yoda

[topol-m]

I'm sure you can get this against a huge head-on IR target like a bomber. But a fighter, not necessarily. And I'm not sure why you think he shouldn't be able to launch the R-550 at the same time ... missile seeker sensitivity was pretty similar for all sides.

 

I`m pretty sure the R-73`s seeker is much better. The R 550 initially could be launched in tail aspect only until the AD3633 seeking head, so no comparison there... What is really frustrating is that the Mirage actually fires not at the same time but before me :mad:

[GGTharos]

I don't think you can really say that. :) The AIM-9L which was considered 'all aspect', and a relative contemporary of the R-73 was not considered very useful head-on against a non-afterburning target. Same with new R-60M.

 

As for the AI, they cheat (also, you may be correct in one thing: LOFC does not model rear-aspect only heaters right now, so you might be right about the mirage)

 

I`m pretty sure the R-73`s seeker is much better. The R 550 initially could be launched in tail aspect only until the AD3633 seeking head, so no comparison there... What is really frustrating is that the Mirage actually fires not at the same time but before me :mad:

[topol-m]

As for the AI, they cheat (also, you may be correct in one thing: LOFC does not model rear-aspect only heaters right now, so you might be right about the mirage)

 

The bastard is cheating heavily. :) Man, too much stuff need fixing, i have the feeling a lot of them won`t be fixed in 1.13 so i hope it won`t be the last patch.

[topol-m]

There is some nice information in the exported mig29 manual about missile

seeker ranges, unfortunately the R73 is not included in the graphs, probably

it's very classified. However some basics are known about it, and I have

I have spoken to a pilot testfiring it on what I recall he compared to a

*drone sized flare*, basically a Shit big target. This target was tracked when

reaching about 30 km.

 

From what i recall this was a clear day.

Given knowledge about other seeker performances, a good estimate head on against

below AB fighter size target...hm....maybe 5 nm seeker range? i also compare this

to modern (not officially in use) fighter IRSTs apertures, where such maximum tracking range is around 10 nm

 

Yoda, what is the size of this tracked target? And do you mean it was locked at 30 km or it was locked and tracked until it got 30 km away? Also can you give us some details about the seeker ranges from the manual, i`d like to test different missiles in game and see if they are modelled accurately.

Edited May 7, 2009 by topol-m

[GGTharos]

He means the seeker tracked it 30km away. He also pointed out it was a done sized flare. Drones tend to be very big - like your car. It's like a plane coming at you in afterburner, but you can see through the fuselage.