ensure no inhibits present George AI and AGM-114L Lasing and Fail to Fire Problems

[GeoS72]

George AI will lase a target every 5 seconds (approx) when outside of 8 km to obtain range information. Inside 8km, the lase logic is delayed to some ambiguous time. This process is very persistent when using the AGM-114L (Radar Hellfire) missile. Furthermore, George AI will not fire even when there is a clear line-of-sight to the target and the helo is within launch parameters. Press "Consent to Fire" all you want; George AI will not comply.

I'd also like to point out that after lasing a target outside 10km will also allow the range to falsely count down and then stop. This fake countdown process will continue until the helo is within 9km from a target. What is the link between number of instances George AI lases a target beyond 8km, laser range data countdown beyond 10km, infrequent lasing within 8km, and failing to fire AGM-114Ls after consent was given?

One more parting shot: George AI will frequently fail to lase a target. I have to manually cycle between Missile and No WAS modes just to get the George AI to lase a target in a "timely" fashion.

Derbroomaster and I flew in the same mission on Jul 13. So here is a link to my track file (much larger than his) and my DCS log.

PersianGulf_006 Track File

I'd certainly like to see some resolution to this persistent and annoying problem.

This issue was originally addressed in this thread:
George Wont Fire Any Hellfires

More track & log files to follow.

dcs 2024-07-13.log

Original posted on 7/13/2024:
Here are DCS log & Track files from a Fast Mission (creation) that was in the Sinai map. This track should show the number of times that I had to manually cycle George AI from WAS'ing MSL to De-WAS then back to MSL in order to get ranging info. A lot of the time, this range was under 5km. There were also several instances of George AI not firing after consecutive consent to fire orders were given.

Fast Mission Tracj 2024-07-13.trk dcs 2024-07-13 Fast Mission.log

[GeoS72]

Also posted on 7/13/2024:

Here is another DCS log and link to a Fast Mission from the Sinai map. I also do not understand why this thread is heavily restricted with file sizes. The link is about 18.5 MB and showcases the problem of firing on the VERY last target, a T-72 MBT. 

Fast Mission-Sinai-Last Tank No Fire

dcs 2024-07-13 FastMis-LastTankNoFire.log

Posted on 7/19/2024:

Ok, here are 2 sets of log/track files for a test mission in the Caucasus map. I wasn't able to duplicate the problem as we described above. However, I did experience 1 laser ranging event at a range of ~9,900 meters then got no other lase events. After flying towards the target range, George AI gave me an "in-range" at ~7,800 meters. There were no other laser ranging events. This happened when targeting the 1st vehicle on both runs.

dcs Test Pilot 1st Target Long Wait-2.log dcs Test Pilot 1st Target Long Wait.log DH Test Pilot-Long Wait 1st Target.trk DH Test Pilot-Long Wait 1st Target-2.trk

One more post on 7/19/2024:

This track should better show the ranging issue with the first target. George lased target at ~9.6km and then nothing. I cycled his status from MSL to No WAS and then back to MSL. He said target was within range but did not lase at first. The range was at 6.8km until he lased the target again.

This problem appears to happen when there is more action occurring in the battle space. So more data is needed.

Additionally, this issue is problematic to capture for me. There are days when this bug happens frequently while other days, it's not a big deal.

dcs DH Test Pilot-1st Target Range Issue.log DH Test Pilot-1st Target Range Issue.trk

[GeoS72]

Here is tonight's issue on my Syria base capture map (played in single player):

George AI lased the first target 4 times outside of 8km. George did not lase again but I got a "within range" message. The target data went from ~8400 m to ~7,800 m without the need to lase again. I gave the consent to fire and George AI fired a Lima. I also want to point out that there should have been a 5th time George AI would lase the target based on his earlier cadence. After the target was destroyed, George AI acquired the 2nd target but took a while to lase it. It was well inside 8km and no issue with George firing a Lima.

dcs 2024-07-24 Syria.log DH Messeh-4x Lase.trk

[Derbroomaster]

Submitting my own example of this problem, with files.

 

dcs.log PersianGulf_006-20240713-144542.trk

[Floyd1212]

9 hours ago, GeoS72 said:

Here is tonight's issue on my Syria base capture map (played in single player):

I was going to check out this new track you posted, but it looks like it requires some WWII assets.

[Glide]

George performed as normal this morning.  I'll keep monitoring.

[GeoS72]

Here is another set of files. George had several failures to lase & fire in a generic Caucasus map MIZ file.

dcs Fail2Lase-Fail2Fire.log DH Fail2Lase-Fail2Fire.trk

[GeoS72]

I used this map for the most recent testing.

Test Range.miz

[GeoS72]

Here is a 2nd set of files that should show when George AI wouldn't lase or fire.

dcs fail2Lase-Fail2Fire-2nd time.log DH Fail2Lase-Fail2Fire-2nd time.trk

[Derbroomaster]

OK, just ran into it again.

Multiplayer. Heading to enemy base. George says "target in range" almost right after I tell him which one to engage. No lasing. I give the command to fire with the response "Engaging" each time. Nothing.

Log and track files included.

PersianGulf_007-20240725-145458.trk

dcs.log-20240725-203715.zip

Edited July 26, 2024 by Derbroomaster
Replaced log file with what should be the correct one.

[GeoS72]

On tonight's track file in a Persian Gulf multiplayer server:

1. Take off from FARP Rome to capture Liwa.
2. ~20 flight from FARP.
3. George AI lased the first 3 targets:
3.a. SA-11 Command Center, began lasing ~8,700 m. Consent given at 7,800 m. Missile fired ~ 7,700 m. Target destroyed.
3.b. EWR, began lasing ~ 5,000 m. No consent given. Target destroyed by pilot (me) with Gun ~ 800 m.
3.c. SA-11 Launcher, began lasing ~ 6,000 m. Target destroyed by pilot (me) with Gun ~ 900 m.
4. All remaining targets (~6 total) at Liwa were designated by George AI but NO laser ranging info obtained.  George AI set to "Yellow": Consent to Fire required and Hellfire Lima WAS'ed. Pilot did not intentionally cycle WAS for George AI.
5. All remaining targets destroyed by pilot (me) with Gun ~ 900 m or less.
6. Base captured with only 1 missile launched, all remaining targets destroyed via Gun.

PersianGulf_007-20240727-205351.trk dcs 2024-07-27 Liwa 6 targets no lase.log

[Lord Vader]

Hi all.

This has been discussed several times before, regarding ranges, angles and timing at which George may or may not engage. 
In some cases, we've seen user errors introduced, other times George's own programming can interfere with his performance in certain conditions. 

All I can say at this moment is that George is a very complex system and we'll continue to improve the way it works. For now, guarantee stability, good LOS and within the ranges.

[GeoS72]

@Lord Vader,

Please review my last track file (PersianGulf_007...). While attacking targets at Liwa, I was well inside 6,000 m, had a good line of sight, slowly advancing on targets, and was stable.

I'd also like to point out that the number of times the AI would lase between 9999 m and 8,000 m is anywhere between 4 - 5 times, depending on aircraft speed. That's about 9-second intervals from "Laser Off" to "Laser On". Once inside the 8,000 m range, the periodicity of AI lasing is erratic, sporadic, or unpredictable.

I can't speak for others, but using workarounds can only go so far. I find it odd that not a whole lot of people have complained about this lack of performance; or at least made a bug report. There aren't a lot of threads that cover this specific discrepancy, and if there is a thread about it, then there are a lot of conjecture and no results.

It is very bothersome that the AI would fail to lase or even refuse to fire a missile when it appears that all constraints to designate & launch a missile have been met. If you pardon the pun, I spend a lot of time "force choking" the AI to do it's job. When seconds count for the AI to lase & fire, that's when it will fail you. That becomes VERY frustrating when you have to fly 15+ minutes to a target then get shot down because the AI failed. That sucks the fun right out of playing DCS. Would you agree?

Will any of these track files be used to further dissect this problem?

[Hootman9104]

I've had it happen on occasions also, as Geo states at the worst times. I'll keep a closer eye on it and think to also record and mark the instances since I usually record OBS during flight to watch later, and also record TACVIEW as my system is pretty good (that might help show LOS instances maybe).

Also, George is repeatedly late to formation, and falls out of the PT runs at least twice a week. He sloppy on pre-flights and I've caught him napping more than once on ingress and egress.

I roomed with him at Camp Comanche back in the day for 9 months during an SFOR rotation early in our careers, and came to the conclusion he is a terrible human being. He ate my food in the fridge, left food out (ant problem), and constantly left his smelly drawers and socks strewn about on the floor. When I was on night shifts he constantly blasted his radio in the morning and slammed his locker doors, his desk drawers, and the main door into our room. He watched "Titanic" and all the "Madea" movies over and over, and refused to wear headphones.  He also whistles non-stop.

Someone was also taking a dump and not flushing in the crapper of our barracks building, and a few times a toilet was clogged with too much TP and overflowed. Go-Pros weren't really a thing back then, and I never caught the Phantom Crapper, but I have little doubt that it was him.

The CO would only allow me to switch rooms if someone else was willing to switch with me. Needless to say, that never happened.

He's the worst.

[LittleNose]

Been lurking a while on this subject, as I have also come across this issue with George not firing the Hellfires when within parameters.

[GeoS72]

@Hootman9104, @LittleNose, et al:

When you encounter such problems, please help out the effort in resolving this issue. Post your dcs log and track file along with a description of the incident. The more documentation we provide, then it should help refine the AI logic.

[Derbroomaster]

Latest one. Just now. 

Track radar in the TADS. Within 4km. Lased. Repeated commands to fire ignored.dcs.log

PersianGulf_007-20240730-190750.trk

[GeoS72]

In this multiplayer server, I flew into Al Dhafra. First target was T-90 MBT. George lased & fired. Target destroyed. The 2nd target was a Shilka. I had to cycle George AI twice in order to get him to lase & fire. Range at time of fire was ~6,800 m. I'd also like to point out that I was well inside the 8,000 m range and George refused to lase. I was flying right towards the Shilka at a 12 o'clock position, so my path was stable.

DCS Log attached & link to download the track file is on my Google Drive: Link to PersianGulf_007-George AI No Lase.trk

So now this bug is marked as W.I.P., what exactly does that mean? Are there any timelines established to address this problem?

dcs.log

Edited August 8, 2024 by GeoS72

[Derbroomaster]

Bump. This is still happening.

[Derbroomaster]

This is still happening. Almost got killed last night several times due to AI not firing or lasing when he's supposed to. 

[Derbroomaster]

Still happening.

[tanker82]

Still happening

 

Edited October 16, 2024 by tanker82

[Floyd1212]

2 hours ago, tanker82 said:

Still happening

I don't think your videos are demonstrating the issues described in this thread, but I will ask anyway...  Did George have a solid IAT track on the center of mass of the enemy helo?

I'm guessing he was lasing the tail or some extremity of the helo, and it changed aspect and the laser ended up lasing a point on the ground way beyond it.  As a result, the missile tried to climb to be able to reach the new designated target.  Just a hunch.

[tanker82]

39 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

I don't think your videos are demonstrating the issues described in this thread, but I will ask anyway...  Did George have a solid IAT track on the center of mass of the enemy helo?

I'm guessing he was lasing the tail or some extremity of the helo, and it changed aspect and the laser ended up lasing a point on the ground way beyond it.  As a result, the missile tried to climb to be able to reach the new designated target.  Just a hunch.

Honestly, Im not sure cause i had the FCR page up. I slaved George onto the KA-50 and told him to fire. So not sure on George's aiming point. This could be the case

Edited October 17, 2024 by tanker82

[Lord Vader]

Like mentioned in the other thread, third party programs that use simple telemetry do not offer a clear picture of the events.

We need track files to analyse conditions.