ensure no inhibits present George AI and AGM-114L Lasing and Fail to Fire Problems

[tanker82]

On 10/18/2024 at 5:45 AM, Lord Vader said:

Like mentioned in the other thread, third party programs that use simple telemetry do not offer a clear picture of the events.

We need track files to analyse conditions. 

I cannot provide a track file due to it being a public server but tried to record, at least can you tell me what im doing wrong to get George to lase a slow moving jet coming towards me?

[Floyd1212]

It appears George lases the target and rifles, so there is no "failure to fire" problem in this situation.

I can't tell what part of the aircraft he is lasing, or if he is actually lasing past the aircraft, but even if he does have a good lase on the center of mass of that F-14B, I think you are expecting a bit too much out of a Hellfire in this situation.  Also, at Mach .92, I'm not sure I would classify him as a "slow-moving" aircraft.

 

[tanker82]

8 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

It appears George lases the target and rifles, so there is no "failure to fire" problem in this situation.

I can't tell what part of the aircraft he is lasing, or if he is actually lasing past the aircraft, but even if he does have a good lase on the center of mass of that F-14B, I think you are expecting a bit too much out of a Hellfire in this situation.  Also, at Mach .92, I'm not sure I would classify him as a "slow-moving" aircraft.

 

understood, so I guess the best action to take in this case is to land and hope the enemy jet doesnt see me?

[Floyd1212]

25 minutes ago, tanker82 said:

understood, so I guess the best action to take in this case is to land and hope the enemy jet doesnt see me?

Ideally you would have some friendly CAP to engage those hostile fixed-wings, but I understand that can be difficult to rely on in a public server.

There’s not much cover in that area that you are working in, but aggressively side-slipping behind that mountain may have evaded his missile, but my guess is he would circle around to try again.

You can fly with a buddy in a Kiowa equipped with Stingers, or even better, a Gazelle with Mistrals. I find fixed-wing players hate getting killed by a Gazelle. I’ve seen quite a few rage-quit after getting shot down.

[Derbroomaster]

On 10/22/2024 at 2:21 PM, Floyd1212 said:

Ideally you would have some friendly CAP to engage those hostile fixed-wings, but I understand that can be difficult to rely on in a public server.

There’s not much cover in that area that you are working in, but aggressively side-slipping behind that mountain may have evaded his missile, but my guess is he would circle around to try again.

You can fly with a buddy in a Kiowa equipped with Stingers, or even better, a Gazelle with Mistrals. I find fixed-wing players hate getting killed by a Gazelle. I’ve seen quite a few rage-quit after getting shot down.

Hitting a jet with a Stinger from a Kiowa is one of the more satisfying things I've experienced.

This problem still exists. Got shot down during squadron night more than once because George AI did not fire when needed.

[GeoS72]

@Lord Vader, how many track files do you need? I've reported several already. I'd offer you one better: come into my server and experience the glitch for yourself! DM me for more details.

[Derbroomaster]

Just happened again mid-mission. Killed by OSA that George would not fire on when ordered to.

[GeoS72]

Regarding track files from Multiplayer servers, a local file should be found in the following location (Saved Games folder):
C:\Users\UserName\Saved Games\DCS\Tracks\Multiplayer

All, please post your track files or a link to them (if file size is too large) when reporting problems with George AI not firing missiles. This will advance our concern with ED. If I have no file size restrictions, this thread would have enough track files to choke a horse.

Please address this long-standing issue, ED.

[Floyd1212]

What would also be helpful when providing a track is the time in mission when the (non)event occurred.  The EUFD has a clock showing Zulu time, and is often visible as your are replaying a track.  Make a note of the time when the issue occurred and then someone is much more likely to ffwd through your track to find it.  Especially since there is no rewind function.

[Derbroomaster]

Just happened again in multiplayer.

 

[Derbroomaster]

Aaaaaand just happened again in multiplayer. 

 

PLEASE INVESTIGATE THIS

[Floyd1212]

Maybe it's a multiplayer thing?  Can you reproduce it in a short single player mission?

[GeoS72]

Floyd, It can be reproduced in single player. I have several posts & files to document the problem.

Guys, don't just state the problem still persists. I can't stress enough the importance of providing a track file to prove the problem still persists and is frequently happening. Despite my offer, Lord Vader or anyone else from the ED team has yet to step into my server to experience the issue first-hand.

[Derbroomaster]

Just happened again. Time 2:47. Lased a target outside of engagement range, then didn't do it again. Gave him at least two or three more targets, which he never lased.

You now have a track file and the time to look for. Please investigate.

Syria_Modern_012-Day Watch-20241108-112210.trk

Edited November 8, 2024 by Derbroomaster
Track file

[GeoS72]

Here is my track file. Setting: Syria map ~0530. Headed south to Tel Nof. 1st target SA-19, lased multiple times between 9999 m and 8000 m. Got the "Ready to Fire" cue from George AI, range jumped to ~7800 m, I issued consent to fire, then he complied. Target destroyed. 2nd target: SA-15, lased under 7500 m, I issued consent to fire, then he complied. Target destroyed. 3rd target: SA-8. Target lased. After dodging 3 missiles, got into position to fire. Consent given then would not fire. George AI had to lase again for updated data. After lasing, jockeyed into fire position, consent given then he complied. Unfortunately, the SA-8 had time to fire in between this inactivity and I was shot down. This scenario captures my issue with the AI.

Here is the link to the file because it's fairly large:
Syria Modern 012 SA-8 Fail to Lase

[Floyd1212]

On 11/8/2024 at 11:20 AM, Derbroomaster said:

You now have a track file and the time to look for. Please investigate.

I tried to watch your track and it looks like this is a .miz file, renamed to .trk, and not an actual track file.  A track file will have a "track" and "track_data" folder in them.  When I run your file, it lets me choose a slot to load into, etc.

 

On 11/8/2024 at 11:24 AM, GeoS72 said:

Here is my track file.

I also tried to watch your track file a couple time, and got a "Mission Load Fail" each time that then hung DCS.  Maybe someone else will have better luck.

[GeoS72]

Here is another link to another track file that was recorded on 11/08/2024. Take off slot was AH-64D Ben Gurion 1. Just after takeoff, I headed out to sea in order to dispatch SHORAD at Palmachim. I was shot down because the AI failed to lase then fire.

@Floyd1212, I don't know what to tell you about corrupt track files. They are not edited.

Syria Day Watch No Lase-No Track

Edited November 11, 2024 by GeoS72

[Floyd1212]

@GeoS72 I was able to view this one.  Not sure why the other one said it wouldn't load.

The failure for George to fire (this time) was he was not in constraints.  There could be more than one reason for not being in constraints, but in this situation you can see the "ROLL LIMITS" message in the High-Action Display area of his video feed.  The aircraft is banking too hard for the system to let a missile come off the rail.

Prior to this point, you were having him scan for the targets, but you were either outside *9999 or outside George's engagement range of 8000m.

Once you got within 8km, you had him acquire the target again and turned in to get the nose on.  During this time, you can see the small constraints box (in LOAL mode) was moving around as you were getting onto the target and it was a dashed box the whole time.  Then just after this screenshot, the constraints box went sold and George did rifle, but by then it was too late...

A couple things I noticed here, and I am by no means an expert, but will venture forth with my observations anyway:

1) You are going up with a full load of Limas.  This means every time George lases the target with the TADS, he loads the TARGET DATA to the missile and then stops lasing.  To get new range info, you have to have him de-WAS missiles and re-WAS them to clear the TARGET DATA and start the cycle over again.  You can get around this issue by setting him to No Weapon and Laser On so that he continually lases the target and you get updated range info.  Then, when you are getting close to being under his 8000m engagement range, switch him to missiles and let him load the data and rifle.  The other option here is to go with a mixed load-out of Limas and Kilos and keep him on SAL to continuously lase and get range info, then switch him over to RF when you are ready to fire.  Personally, I often go up with 12 Kilos and 4 Limas, and save the Limas for dangerous threats (like SAMs), but use the Kilos when I can take my time and can out-range the enemy.

2) This is more of a tactical observation.  Getting out over the water and coming back to attack an SA-8 is going to be a challenge every day of the week.  He will out-range you and get his missile off before yours every time, and yours still has 30+ seconds to reach the target.  Yes, with the Limas you can fire your missile and duck for cover, but out over the water you have no cover.  You might be better off staying over land and using the terrain and trees to your advantage.  Sneak up on him and either use George to attack, or bring an FCR and fire the Limas yourself.  And once your missile is in the air, get back down behind cover.  I suppose if you want to get out over the water to find him, then Store him as a TGT point, you can then get back over land and know exactly where he is.

3) This doesn't effect George's ability to acquire targets and kill them, but it doesn't look like you have a good boresight of the IHADSS as you can see your reticle is off a little bit from what George is actually looking at in the TADS.  Not a huge deal, but having the IHADSS boresighted accurately will help with your SA once you turn on CSCOPE and you see all your shot marks and radar returns overlayed on the IHADSS.  If you don't ever use CSCOPE, I recommend you give it a try.

Edited November 11, 2024 by Floyd1212

[Derbroomaster]

Another example today. This time he was given a target multiple times, starting around 04:33:30 or so. Didn't even lase the target when it was clearly in his sight.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vvPn3eW32ddslUiJ-rVgywTHVnnuEeKX/view?usp=drive_link

[Floyd1212]

3 hours ago, Derbroomaster said:

Another example today.

Can you check the permissions on that shared file?  Getting "Access Denied" message.

[Floyd1212]

@Derbroomaster I downloaded your track and started watching it.  After about 5 minutes of playback at 20x speed, it didn't look like you had even slotted into an airframe yet.  And once slotted in, it looked like you had a 160km flight to your targets.

Until ED comes up with a way to capture track "snips" that are short and to the point, long tracks like this are not going to get much attention.  If you want to try and provide something useful that the devs can work with as an actual bug report, try a short single-player mission at the firing range, and see if you can get George to misbehave the way you are experiencing in your regular game sessions.

[Derbroomaster]

So the track files needed to diagnose a problem are themselves unable to be used. Cool.

Did you go to the time stated in my original report?

[admiki]

Snarkiness not required, TYVM.

[Floyd1212]

1 hour ago, Derbroomaster said:

Did you go to the time stated in my original report?

No.  After watching it for 5 minutes with nothing happening but AWACs flying around and some panning and zooming on the F10 map, I gave up.

There is no "skip to this time" feature when playing back a track.  You have to run the mission (at 10x or 20x speed, etc.) until you get to the action.  How long were you in the air before the stated issue occurred?

[Derbroomaster]

It was probably an hour or so, I'm not 100% sure.

I was under the impression giving a time would help with fast-forwarding to the appropriate time the incident occurred. 

16 hours ago, admiki said:

Snarkiness not required, TYVM.

Do you have an example of this topic you'd like to share? If not, you may not understand the frustration a lot of us are feeling as we constantly provide reports and examples.