LRM 2.0 Released!

[RvEYoda]

It is unfortunate you believe it is so unrealistic.

Modern russian birds can also do these step features.

 

Modern US birds with AESA radars will do it so fast you won't even have time

to realize he just turned around ;). (the russian AESAs will likely do the same)

 

The only thing you need is for the radar to detect a target.

If he is detected, meaning signal processing of the return succeeded,

then target is in RAM. In RAM means usually he will be visually displayed

on the radar screen. If you have a set of targets in RAM (=memory), you

can process this memory (step to contacts in this memory).

 

How LRM does this is the following

 

The data on the lockon radar screen can be exported through ED's instructions here.

More specifically, by using Lockon LUA's " LoGetTargetInformation()" function.

This data is then processed by LRM in such a way that any newly detected targets

are added to the LRM radar memory. Any already existing targets get their data updated.

Then when you press the step button, the cursor steps through these targets.

The memory is cleared when an entry has become to old (i set this to 7 seconds, since

this gives a reasonable result in game, likely the real one has much more).

Unforatunety we cannot give a visual indication of the radar memory other than being able

to step somewhere. Therefor it sometimes seems like you step into empty space, while in

fact your radar has already detected the target within the last 7 seconds. This can be caused by

many things like radar mode changes, scale, elevation, turning etc.

 

 

This feature and WAY more is in modern F-1x fighters and have been so for

some time.

 

The reason you are seeing someone going from full def to full off, is cause

energy of the missiles fail. They fly too slow. By the time he has made his

full turn around to engage, your missile should be close to hitting him.

 

Target step is a basic function of any real F-15.

You can also find this step button on the HOTAS in the first pages of the F-16 MLU manual.

it is visible in the Lockheed Martin F-16 MLU flight manual on the first few pages where

they show HOTAS details. The different Falcon4 variants model this feature in a few different

ways. Allied Force for example introduces an artificial step delay.

 

Also : the real amraam takes a second or two to fire. Lockon does not have this.

 

Also, It has been suggeste the Mig-29 and Su27 of Lockon era have a similar function.

 

The following is what I recieved in a PM a few days back, and plan on integrating into LRM at some point.

 

"Hi, man. I`ve asked on the russian forum about how exactly "auto lock on" works in mig-29/su-27. To generalize what they answered:

So as we know there is the Auto/Manual switch which when in auto position is switching the radar from search mode to track mode and automatic locking on the first found target.

The lock on is done with both radar and EOS if the target is close enough for the EOS to lock on it. If it`s locked by the radar.

The "first found target" basically is the first target that gets into the radar search cone when Auto mode is switched on. Which in FC could be recreated differently: either the closest target to the center of scanned area gets locked or it could be set to random (if there are for instance 5 targets in the limits of the radar search area it locks one of them randomly). IMHO the closest to the center target is more realistic and easy to be done but...

That`s it. Great if you could do it among the many other things you are doing ;) Cheers.

"

 

This is also suggested by some friends to me that know and often speak to mig29 pilots.

 

 

How long does it take to turn back offensive, aquire and fire at the target?

 

Step one is turning back, which will likely take about 9-10 seconds given a turn rate around 18 dps.

 

Step 2 is to get the bandit within your radars scan zone so you can actually pick him up (without him in

radarmemory you cannot step to him, and certainly not lock him!).

Let us assume we are very fast and lucky. 1 second. This time is likely to be short

due to lockon's very high visual range.

 

Step 3 is to have the radar antenna actually sweep over the target. Maximum time is 4 seconds for a full

6A4B sweep, and this would maybe on average be 2-3 seconds. On a very lucky day.

 

so going from defensive to firing offensive would taka approximately 13-14 seconds from the time he starts turning back.

Now we must also consider the situation where he cannot pick you up with radar. There is a problem with this, since in lockon, you

get visual at 20 nm(36 or so km) out , meaning you can easily turn back and engage on visual.

 

Now add to that the lack of G strain on the pilots ability to make good math and logical decisions with his radar when

he has turned back, a launch delay of perhaps 2 seconds after pressing the pickle button.

Well we will probably increase our 13-14 seconds to 20 seconds.

 

So what does LRM change here?

LRM makes it about 1 second faster. without LRM it would take me approx 1 second extra to move the cursor to the target and hit lock.

 

Sidenote : In a 1v3 i would never allow myself to get inside any of the bandits' Rtr. It would be suicide.

Hit and run outside and wait for one of them to make a mistake or an oportunity for me to disappear.

 

Or if the sim models kinetic energy of missiles more accurately, you can gain serious A/E/F/whathaveyou pole advantages by being

very superior in altitude in speed, but unfortuntely lockon doesnt model this.

Edited July 3, 2009 by =RvE=Yoda

[A.S]

That´s what i meant in posts earlier: Post 202 and 204

 

solution X is good or bad because ...(details, analytics) .... and its impact in current "gameplay" or/and comparsion to real condidtions

solution Y is good or bad bacause ...(details, analytics) .... and its impact in current "gameplay" or/and comparsion to real condidtions

 

...inteligent integration of all this variables and parameters, in such a way, that they make sense in corporate operation and not only put into place in good proposition....

 

Yes, you do/can integrate more realistic features but you DO HAVE also (somehow you do) responsibility for the side effects in actual gameplay under all other dominant conditions

 

(Just saying....:music_whistling: ...loosing point of view baba.. )

Edited July 3, 2009 by A.S

[Kuky]

Well all right Yoda, by this logic which I agree with is it means it would take in real life good 20seconds or so till someone can go from full defensife to offensive... but this is still 1vs1 I wuold think. I would think having 3 enemy aircraft on you quite a bit more challenging, if not impossible to take on.

 

What I see is way shorter time for this being done in LockOn... so to take this "lets make gameplay forced to more realistic level and use of tactics" I would think having thing so ease radar/systems management and make even more helpers is going oposite. It makes one side, F-15 specifically and the most more easier to fly... which is fine, but brings the unrealistic style and tactics of lfying in LockOn to, to me, even worse level.

[RvEYoda]

The problem you refer to is imo not significantly altered by LRM.

LRM's snap feature on the other hand implements a reduced version

of a real existing feature. The eagle radar user interface is supposed

to be useful. It is not supposed to be the most crap interface of all

radars in lo (which imo it is on default settings). Regardless if this

particular feature of LRM alters game balance in favor of one plane,

there are others that would do similar things for hte Red side.

 

Back to your post It is supposed to be even easier to handle, and much

more integrated, because in the real jet you would have a million other

things to think of as well (this adds the complexity).

 

Now that this would bring more unrealistic flying styles to lockon i very

VERY strongly disagree with. If I see someone trying to fly by the book

in standard Lo, he will usually fail, unless he is exceptionally good.

If he does it in LRM settings? his chances improve vastly, and this

is true for both Red and blue.

 

Besides, we are making a sim. If you want to preserve the initial game

plane v plane balance issues then go ahead, however me and some others

prefer playing maxed out with useful features (taken from the real jets ofc).

 

The reason why I think there is so much blame on this feature is because

when I think you implement such features, people will be 3 times as likely

to look for issues. These issues were there already before. And add to that

that the target step has been so incredibly misunderstood - Some were

thinking it was an auto lock/auto/easy radar (while it is none of the sort).

 

It does not alter the lock times that much in the long range bvr situation,

it is more of a sorting tool here imo. It becomes more of a factor close range,

however at that position it is also available on red side (check Lrm details),

and soon there will likely be a similar step (although just according to the algorithm

posted 2 posts back) for long ranges.

 

The turn back fire, turn cold, is almost entirely caused only by missile energy

and lockon missile's capability to find targets in maddog mode (where they are

far to strong compared to RL). It is possible to, if you dont know where the bandit

is, fire an amraam and see where it turns (there is the bandit).

Update : Ok if you don't realize this, i mention it as a PROBLEM/flaw/exploit in the game.

Exposing the problem. I certainly don't encourage it at some would think.

 

Imagine having ur missile going 1.5-2x faster than now, and what that means in

terms of closure and time to react. When your target starts turning back you have

a missile flying at him (you fire when his RWR angles are off so he wont get a warning).

By the time he is back hot the missile is just a short few secnods from impact, and he still

cannot find you (because you were intelligent enough to move out of the previous altitude,

and you cannot see 40 km like lo ^^, maybe 5-10 km if you are stressed).

IF he is lucky he finds you the same time his plane goes *bang*

 

If you are not in that range, you can imagine it as a dance where the chaser becomes the

chaser, both turning at the same time, if you crank the same time he turns, (and you also fire),

you will likely have a misisle that impacts him way before he can get his missile close to you.

 

There is also the psycological aspect to this, often used by =RvE=Paploo, think you are chasing him?

haha, he is fooling you ;). He will make a quick turn back, maybe 20 degrees ( you fire ), but he

has already anticipated this (and a few more things, he turns back cold those 20 degrees.

 

The range between you is virtually the same as before, except you have one missile left.

When you are low enough on weapons, he goes in for the kill. It is a dangerous trick

of DLZ estimation plus making your opponent nervous ;)

Edited July 3, 2009 by =RvE=Yoda

[A.S]

The end of your story sounds almost like a delicate party ala FalconAF BVR, where some mysterious figures try to defeat me with abstract callsigns, either blown out of my airspace or moving along in "shaking" illusions...:megalol:

 

 

:music_whistling:

 

 

 

(nice read)

Edited July 3, 2009 by A.S

[Kuky]

oh yeah, you call maddoging AIM-120 and watching where it turns a realistic aproach to tactics not to mention how do you even see this missile without smoke trail? Not in regular LockOn graphics I tell you ;) See this is exactly why I say the way you and few others are hypocritical when they talk all this talk about how they want others to fly realistically and use valid tactics and you yourself don't follow what you preach...

 

This just proves my point you are NOT flying realistically as you are very much using (always have I'll say) game flaws and with LRM scripting you are making it even easier for yourself so you might drop the persuit for forcing others to follow your path.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Kuky

[A.S]

oh yeah, you call maddoging AIM-120 and watching where it turns a realistic aproach to tactics not to mention how do you even see this missile without smoke trail? Not in regular LockOn graphics I tell you ;) See this is exactly why I say the way you and few others are hypocritical when they talk all this talk about how they want others to fly realistically and use valid tactics and you yourself don't follow what you preach...

 

This just proves my point you are NOT flying realistically as you are very much using (always have I'll say) game flaws and with LRM scripting you are making it even easier for yourself so you might drop the persuit for forcing others to follow your path.

 

Can i please see that Track (if excistent) once mentioned, where some assumed that there would be no way in the world to dodge missiles "like that" without "seeing Mo?re" ?

 

Because often things are explainable even if they seem very mysterious, and i understood the messeage between your lines.

 

I only can add this as note: Every missile in LO, you are aware of that it is - or better - will be fired, even in NEZ range WILL NOT GET, if you haven´t screwed up your executive precision, timing and PreSeT. And that is even posibile in 2D Pit with no TrackIR..and to top it, at Night !

 

But if you are NOT AWARE of them, YOU ARE DEAD for sue :) !

[Kuky]

I didn't understand a word of your last post AS

[RvEYoda]

oh yeah, you call maddoging AIM-120 and watching where it turns a realistic aproach to tactics not to mention how do you even see this missile without smoke trail? Not in regular LockOn graphics I tell you ;) See this is exactly why I say the way you and few others are hypocritical when they talk all this talk about how they want others to fly realistically and use valid tactics and you yourself don't follow what you preach...

 

This just proves my point you are NOT flying realistically as you are very much using (always have I'll say) game flaws and with LRM scripting you are making it even easier for yourself so you might drop the persuit for forcing others to follow your path.

 

Who ever said I call this a realistic approach!?

 

You are twisting my words in every chance you get to talk crap about me it would seem.

 

I call it a full fledged super exploit. I mentioned this as an exploit in the game.

Something I am strongly against. I don't use it.

It is like I show you an issue in the game, and instantly you believe I am going to use it?

Maybe my english is not good enough?

 

I also have knowledge on how to do many other things. Does that make me guilty of doing it?

Ok I know how to steal candy from a local store, i must be guilty since I know hwo to stretch

out my arm and grab something? (FYI i havent...sigh)

 

I can tell you why I won't use this exploit - I want to learn how to become better at air combat,

not how to get better at tricking the game. The goal? To be able to use virtually the same tactics

regardless of what (80s-90s) air combat sim I am playing.

 

It would seem you would jump at the first oportunity to talk bad about me.

Edited July 3, 2009 by =RvE=Yoda

[RvEFuSiOn]

mehhh thats why i dont fly lockon... it blows no matter how its sugar coated.

 

Falcon all the way

[A.S]

LoL Fusion ...

Edited July 3, 2009 by A.S

[Kuky]

But Yoda, lets say that you are not using any of the flaws in game and you haven't modified anything to help you see or do things better then what original game intended to... from my perspective then you would not be able to do things you do... meaning... I do not think one guy can take on 2 of my squad mates and myseld as 3rd and live to tell because quite frankly I am not that bad and same for other two guys... in regular gameplay someone that tries that cops it.

 

I just can't justify that you can be that good on your own... I am sorry to say this but I've been thinking about this for a long time (you've been flying for along time and so have I) and no matter how much I try to think you could be just too good, I myself can't buy that thought.

 

I'd say if we were talking about IL-2 for example where I haven't even hurd someone saying someone found some hack or cheat or exploit or weaknes in a game... I would be wondering really hard if I am just dilusional... but in case of LockOn where you yourself say you know absolutely all of the flaws in the game (which means you must have done them to at least test them) and then again I am asking myself why would someone even go through trouble to look for all the flaws like that... only reasonable explanation is that you wanted to find a way so no one can kill you online... simple as that. Now, how else am I suposed to react when I am flying again you knowing all this and I see things I say to myself is just unreal. I don't know what else to say.

[GGTharos]

This has gone far enough. Anyone have something useful to contribute?

[A.S]

Kuky...

 

I do remember myself (as i was RvE) taking out 3 good RVE Pilots out in a BVR scenario in one fight.

I do remember =RvE=Flame once taking out 3 good RVE Pilots out alone in same scenario in a MIG !!!

I do remember Yoda doing also same.....

 

Possible !! Difficult BUT Possible !! Hardcore, Baby, excists..hehe :pilotfly:

[RvEYoda]

Of course we don't know all the flaws...But what do you want me to do? :).

 

I already said if you wanted to I could show you some tricks (I dont mean exploits!),

do some trainingwith your guys, yet I get accused of unfair play. I'm hardly the best player out

there. Just look at some of the other guys out there. Fusion and AS both

kick my ass right now, and I assume many people from other squads do as

well. But some just don't have the interest of flying Lo or in public servers

because ti is too limiting for their abilities.

 

I once saw Mustang do a 20-0 Kill streak, but watching Breakshot's stats i guess he has 50

kill streak o0.

 

I know you are an awesome pilot Kuky. I fought you several times, you've killed me and

I have killed you. But implying someone cheat's because YOU don't understand their ideas

or tactics or training. I don't like this. My offer still stands. If you want to come to vent

and have me show you things, maybe you can you me your ideas.

 

I'm tired of defending myself from these accusations. Of course I know how to use these

exploits if I want to prevent them. They completely ruin sim play. I've said it before, knowing

how to do something does not make you guilty of doing it.

Edited July 3, 2009 by =RvE=Yoda

[Pilotasso]

This is what I find the most unrealistic part of LRM... when you face someone head to head, your bandit is in F-15C and you are in Su-27, you both fire missiles and you both go defensive... the F-15C pilot can simply turn tail forgetting about his missile... he lets his missile do all the job. The SU-27 pilot (me for example) I need to keep lock and keep track if lock is lost as to what F-15 is doing and evaiding that missile...

 

Now what really pisses me off is that I manage to evade the missile and still have the running bandit locked... he is receeding and just outside RMAX so I don't launch... the F-15 then goes into climb... and what I see is him going from defensive to offensive position again... just as he flips over on my radar and I see he went 180° I fire my missile and I see the F-15 going same turn-tail-and-run defensive and of course it trashes my missile... and before I know it I already have another AIM-120 into me out of nowhere... this is utter bullshit (pardon my language but I really have no better worlds for it) that someone can go from full defensive to full offensive, get me on radar in close range (meaning he knows exactly where to point his antena etc and you would all have to agree to get someone on radar with altitude difference at close range is very hard and takes some time).

 

If you call this one button press to point/lock/shoot.. or maddog...or TWS an active and all in 1-2 seconds realistic, and if you don't think this is an exploit of new kind you are blind... for this one reason (which is why we never wanted TargetStepMod in 3Sqn server even when we tried and enabled ALL other parts of LRM) me and all in my squadron (including an F-18 pilot) have said, this is utter bull**** (full stop)

 

I have every right to question what is being presented to me and if any of you knew any better this is most basic and one of the first principles of science. Even what you read in books is not neccesserily true... I have questioned some individuals ability to act almost as if they are robots and all seeing AI... and again the way LRM is working for radars it is not completely realistic same as stock lockOn is not... but the fact that some individuals need and want so bad to have helpers like TargetStepMod and HOTAS macro-one-button-push-do-it-all-crap.... and being able to do things like going deffensive-offensife-fire-your-missile-go-deffensive all in 2-3 seconds even when 3 good pilots are against you and firing at you... give me a break. I will never accept that as realistic and that's it.

 

Dont get me wrong but the source of your evil is mach 2.5 AMRAAM's otherwise you woudnt see F-15's doing Split-S's repeatedly to re-engage for low PK missiles. Had it been a mach 4+ missile in the first place, what would you see would be F-15's doing F poles and drive you defensive the moment the missile goes active without giving you the chance of keeping the lock while dodging.

ED needs fixing the missile so you wont have to be frustrated by this tactic. theres nothing LRM can do to avoid it.

 

BTW migs do the same "tactic" as well, just as the flankers do with ET's. And they all have donne this for years. Dont blame LRM for this missbehaviour.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Pilotasso

[Pilotasso]

But Yoda, lets say that you are not using any of the flaws in game and you haven't modified anything to help you see or do things better then what original game intended to... from my perspective then you would not be able to do things you do... meaning... I do not think one guy can take on 2 of my squad mates and myseld as 3rd and live to tell because quite frankly I am not that bad and same for other two guys... in regular gameplay someone that tries that cops it.

 

I just can't justify that you can be that good on your own... I am sorry to say this but I've been thinking about this for a long time (you've been flying for along time and so have I) and no matter how much I try to think you could be just too good, I myself can't buy that thought.

 

I'd say if we were talking about IL-2 for example where I haven't even hurd someone saying someone found some hack or cheat or exploit or weaknes in a game... I would be wondering really hard if I am just dilusional... but in case of LockOn where you yourself say you know absolutely all of the flaws in the game (which means you must have done them to at least test them) and then again I am asking myself why would someone even go through trouble to look for all the flaws like that... only reasonable explanation is that you wanted to find a way so no one can kill you online... simple as that. Now, how else am I suposed to react when I am flying again you knowing all this and I see things I say to myself is just unreal. I don't know what else to say.

 

Are you still talking about F-15 versus Mig ans Su tactics?

 

You might think that no one should be able to mess with an entire squad and get away with it but the Real F-15 does just that. The one on LOMAC fails miserably and leaves the impression its another single engagement head t head fighter. Fixing the game and the missiles might cure the repetitive split-S re engagemente tactic, but you and your wingmen would still be challenged by a single Eagle anyway.

 

I not excusing the missbehaviour in Spli S's but end result will still be the same. I think you and the rest of the people have to face these BVR tactics in different point of view. Not how they are donne but how you would expect different planes handle BVR combat for different capabilities.

[sunwolf]

Great work Yoda and team!!

Thank you very much!!

[goro]

Hi.

The server is aviasibir with LRM 2.4

PayloadControl = true

But recently, it was observed 2 events:

 

http://forum.aviasibir.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=6790&d=1247390257

 

http://s50.radikal.ru/i130/0907/48/3aea65e84c51.jpg

[RvEYoda]

sry i dont have access to that first forum.

 

Goro if you yourself load up with bad weapons, does the payload control

affect you? Do you have respawn on or off?

(I have tried to make LRM run with respawn on, but there may still be bugs

with it)

 

 

Let's see if we can figure out how he slipped past

 

Catch me on msn or icq Goro!

Edited July 12, 2009 by =RvE=Yoda

[goro]

does the payload control

affect you?

Yes ;)

 

Do you have respawn on or off?

respawn is off.

[RvEYoda]

Does he start on Kuznesov, in air?

 

It is also possible he somehow makes the lockon LUA engine crash,

and so never gets to run the lrm scripts.

 

Or maybe he changed the database numbers of the weapons

in his game. (this is really not detectable). LRM controls weapons

by going by database numbers fro the weapons.

 

There are, however, ways to edit this, for example making Aim-120-ET.

But this should not produce the Aim54 kill message on server i think...

It is most possible he found some way to insert a "stop payload script" into his lua.

 

Does your export lua on server contain any dofile-statements?

Edited July 12, 2009 by =RvE=Yoda

[Hawg11]

=RVE =Yoda, and all involved,

 

I must say, this is very impressive the amount of work, effort and ingenuity put into this mod...

 

 

It doesn't make online play perfect, but by all accounts from what I've read it makes the playing field as close to realistic as possible.

 

With regards to Kuky's objections to the F-15's auto-lock ability, would it be possible to add an acquisition time delay, if real world values are known? Just spit balling ideas here..

 

Are the real world values known for acquisition time for step-lock?

 

 

Anyway wonderful job. I may have to jump online and give her a whirl...

 

Dave

Edited July 12, 2009 by Hawg11

[RvEYoda]

=RVE =Yoda, and all involved,

 

I must say, this is very impressive the amount of work, effort and ingenuity put into this mod...

 

 

It doesn't make online play perfect, but by all accounts from what I've read it makes the playing field as close to realistic as possible.

 

With regards to Kuky's objections to the F-15's auto-lock ability, would it be possible to add an acquisition time delay, if real world values are known? Just spit balling ideas here..

 

Are the real world values known for acquisition time for step-lock?

 

 

Anyway wonderful job. I may have to jump online and give her a whirl...

 

Dave

 

This is actually already taken into account ;)

 

Once a target has been processed by the onboard computers to know his

status, then the acquasition time until the radar is on him would be

the time it takes for the antenna to actually move there. This means, once he

is on screen, he is in ram, and his signal definitely hs been processed (Displaying

him on the radar scope is likely the last step in such a chain), the only thing left

is to "move the radar antenna there"

 

This is in the range of less than half a second. The number ½ second or was said by

F-16 pilot to be a good approximation of it in real life, and the Eagle radar (or so I was

at least told) has a faster sweep rate than that (but almost the same gimbal limits)

The current delay in LRM is a little less than half a second, so I believe this is good enough.

 

However remember that you can make it almost 0.0 s if the antenna is already close enough,

and more importantly, in TWS step->bug, there is likely no delay at all, since the antenna is already

doing the kind of sweeps necessary to store the track files. In tws mode, most of this kind of data

is already in the memory of your system BEFORE you bug him. Bugging him just shows you more

information on him and likely tells your systems to keep a closer eye on him for priority/guide amraams.

 

This is different from the F-16s RWS bug or SAM mode where you can bug (not hardlock) the target

to create a new kind of radar sweep pattern. This feature is not modelled in lockon, but you can see

it in falcon games. LRM doesnt do this. In fact i am not sure the eagle even has/needs such a mode

with its so much more powerful radar.

Edited July 12, 2009 by =RvE=Yoda

[Hawg11]

Thanks,

 

Sounds very reasonable to me...