New to the F-4....trying to understand training mission #3

[Maulkin]

Once I perform the takeoff it says the following:

• fly outbound  TCN 067X on RAD/DME 065/5.5
• at DME 5.5, fly heading 108 and intercept RAD/DME 089/13.5

I think I understand the first one to mean the configure the TACAN to 067X and follow it out to heading 065 for 5.5 miles..?

What does it mean "at DME 5.5" and "intercept RAD/DME 089/13.5" ? 
How am I sure when I have passed  turnpoint 1, so I know when to turn right to heading 108?

Every YouTube video I find regarding navigation seems to rely on the JESTER menu and getting the guy in the back seat to set the HSI for you.  But the tutorial mission does not seem to have a JESTER.

[Zabuzard]

For this sort of navigation you do not need Jester.

Get the TACAN command by clicking the button on the right console so that the lamp lights up green - you are now in charge of the TACAN.

Set up the TACAN channel (67X) on the right console and turn the system on (T/R):

Then, select the TACAN as navigation input for your nav devices by moving the knobs on your main panel to TAC:

The HSI now displays the bearing and range to the selected TACAN station.

You are now ready to use it for the desired navigation.

RAD/DME stands for Radial / Distance Measuring Equipment, which essentially refers to this type of navigation that is based on distance and bearing to a selected point. 065 is the radial, i.e. a straight line that goes out of the TACAN station at 65° and 5.5 is the distance to the TACAN station.

For "fly outbound  TCN 067X on RAD/DME 065/5.5" you would fly from the TACAN station into direction 65° for 5.5 miles as indicated by your HSI. The arrow would point with its tail to 65° and its head to 295° (360 - 65). Then you simply follow that course until the MILES window says 5.5.

For "at DME 5.5, fly heading 108 and intercept RAD/DME 089/13.5" they want you to change your course so that the tail of the arrow points to 89° (head to 271°) as soon as you reached the 5.5 miles mark and then fly that until you are at a distance of 13.5 miles to the TACAN station.

Essentially, the instructions are not telling you a course for your own aircraft but where to place the TACAN station in relation to your position.

There are also a few videos showing how to intercept TACAN radials and similar:

The concept is pretty much aircraft agnostic. So you can look for tutorials on other aircraft, sims or IRL as well and translate it pretty much 1:1 to the Phantom

Edited August 28, 2024 by Zabuzard

[Maulkin]

Thanks I will check out those videos but I think your explanation  has gotten me started pretty well.

[Arecibo]

This mission is really doing my head in. I've got the concepts down from the videos and explanations above and used the TACAN for the Pilot Visual Landing mission successfully. I'm pretty sure I'm turning at the correct distances from the TACAN, and adjusting the course as specified, but there's nothing showing up on the F10 map. There's also no indication that I've hit the waypoint from the voiceover, just warnings that I'm departing for the flight corridor. I've also reached 13.5 nautical miles before I've even intercepted the 089° radial, so I'm then changing it to 166° for the third waypoint and by that point I don't know what the hell I'm doing

Here's my latest run through:

It's all a bit demoralising after many tries, especially after being so excited to learn this bird. I thought I would've moved past this by now. Can someone help?

Maybe the training missions need those green squares like the TF51 training as a bit of hand holding for noobs like me?
 

Edited December 15, 2024 by Arecibo
Trimmed video down

[corn322]

I don't have the F-4, so the only things I notice:

The box in top right say accelerate to 350 kts, but you speed past that about 10 seconds after take off.

That turn looked kinda lazy to me, maybe a 60° bank turn with the reduced speed will have you in better position?

Or maybe the triggers are looking for the stuff in the box in that order: gear and flaps, then pitch angle, then 350 kts. But you fly: gear and flaps, 350 kts, then pitch angle and it breaks the mission?

[Arecibo]

Ah, I thought the 350 knots was just a minimum. Thanks for the other pointers, I’ll give them a try and see if they work out. 

[Snappy]

1 hour ago, Arecibo said:

Ah, I thought the 350 knots was just a minimum. Thanks for the other pointers, I’ll give them a try and see if they work out. 

Also at about the 3:00 point in your video you are flying straight through the tacan radial that you were supposed to intercept and instead you keep flying straight ahead further and further off-course.

When the HSI needle approaches the Center of the HSI you should turn left  (take heading 089 for starters and adjust from there ) and fly outbound on that radial 089 (so keep the needle centered) . 

I don’t understand why you are changing the HSI course again afterwards, you shouldn’t do that.Recommend you re-read Zabuzards post and watch the IFR training video he posted again.He explained it pretty well.

Dont take this the wrong way, but I think you haven’t fully understood the basic IFR navigation concept yet.

Edited December 16, 2024 by Snappy

[Arecibo]

1 hour ago, Snappy said:

Also at about the 3:00 point in your video you are flying straight through the tacan radial that you were supposed to intercept and instead you keep flying straight ahead further and further off-course.

I think the problem was I kept getting a bit overwhelmed as I'm new to this and kept checking my numbers for the next turnpoint I'd written down, which is why I flew past the radial.

1 hour ago, Snappy said:

I don’t understand why you are changing the HSI course again afterwards, you shouldn’t do that.Recommend you re-read Zabuzards post and watch the IFR training video he posted again.He explained it pretty well.

I was trying to set up the third waypoint as a last ditch attempt to get on course, shown here:

 

1 hour ago, Snappy said:

Dont take this the wrong way, but I think you haven’t fully understood the basic IFR navigation concept yet.

I've got lots to learn for sure! I understand the concept of radials and DMEs (I completed the visual landing mission first time using it), but it's utilising it under pressure when there's quick waypoints and loads of other things to think about. I think also I need to be more aggressive in turns like Corn322 mentioned. I'm used to flying 30° banks in a Cessna irl!

Edited December 16, 2024 by Arecibo

[Snappy]

48 minutes ago, Arecibo said:

I think the problem was I kept getting a bit overwhelmed as I'm new to this and kept checking my numbers for the next turnpoint I'd written down, which is why I flew past the radial.

I was trying to set up the third waypoint, shown here:

 

I've got lots to learn for sure! I understand the concept of radials and DMEs (I completed the visual landing mission first time using it), but it's utilising it under pressure when there's quick waypoints and loads of other things to think about. I think also I need to be more aggressive in turns like Corn322 mentioned. I'm used to flying 30° banks in a Cessna irl!

Ok.

I think some of the issues inter-relate.The high speed makes your turn radii very large. Which generates the need for aggressive bank angles.Also at such high speeds navigation gets compressed and things happen fast.

If you stick to the 350kts max , it has several advantages:

Everything happens slightly slower, so less stress or pressure regarding navigation.

Your turn radius isn’t that large , so you don’t need to be that aggressive in regards to turn bank angle and g-load.

45 degree bank should be enough with a smooth pull. 
 
There is a rule of thumb for the bank angle required to fly a standard IFR rate one turn:

(TAS /10)+7 = required degrees of bank angle.

At low altitudes and standard temperatures your TAS isn’t very different from your IAS,

At 5000ft alt and IAS 350 your TAS is somewhere around 380 , depending on Temperature, so 380/10 = 38 . 

38+7 = 45 , so 45 degree bank should do nicely.

Edited December 16, 2024 by Snappy

[Arecibo]

Update: Thanks for all your advice peeps. I just got round to retrying the lesson and finished it successfully! Woop!  Guess I just needed to be more accurate on basically everything , but I feel a lot more confident navigating now.

Thanks again! 

Edited December 22, 2024 by Arecibo

[TOViper]

Looking at your posting, one could say that the manual is actually VERY good

Edited December 23, 2024 by TOViper

[TOViper]

On 12/22/2024 at 11:33 PM, Arecibo said:

Update: Thanks for all your advice peeps. I just got round to retrying the lesson and finished it successfully! Woop!  Guess I just needed to be more accurate on basically everything , but I feel a lot more confident navigating now.

Thanks again! 

Hey Arecibo!

You said you already managed to fly the lesson successfully, but nevertheless I did a quick run-through of the Lesson 03: Takeoff & Navigation.
You may discover the one or other :magic: trick in that video

Unfortunately I could not speak caused by a freaking soar throat
Kind regards and happy new year!

TOViper