Pimax membership requirements.

[Major_Mayhem]

Remember how the Quest requires you to have a Meta/Facebook account to use your Quest VR?

It looks like Pimax is trying to turn their headsets into hardware as a service and their drivers as software as a service.

If you wish to purchase a Pimax VR headset you currently need to put down a huge down payment and then pay a membership fee.

I have been personally been waiting for around a year for the Pimax Chrystal Super to come out.

AS per Pimax's Webstore

"Payment Option 1: Pay membership fees at once with 12% discount $999 upfront + $32.99 membership fee * 24 mo. * 88% = $1,696 USD in total
Payment Option 2: Pay membership fees over 24 month $999 upfront + $32.99 membership fee * 24 mo. = $1,791 USD in total *You'll start paying the monthly membership fees in app 10 days after activating your Crystal Super. "

"What happens if I choose the monthly plan and miss a payment? You can pay Prime at once and you never have this situation occur. But yes, if you choose for monthly payments, and miss a payment, then the Pimax Play software will stop functioning, until you complete the payment."

"After you’ve completed the 2 year subscription, you can then use it for free as long as you like? Yes. After 24 months (or if you decide to pay off Prime in one go), the whole headset is yours and you'll never be required to pay for any subscription. The subscription is tied to your headset, so even if you sell it, the subscription won't reset."

Pimax DOES NOT give the consumer the choice of buying the headset out right for a single payment. You have to put a down payment on it first, and either pay the full 2 year membership fee at once with a discount, or pay it out monthly for 24 months. And while Pimax claims its all yours free and clear after you pay it off, you are still required to maintain a membership and nothing is going to stop Pimax from deciding to move features behind a paywall at a later date with a "Membership Fee".

Keep in mind Pimax is using the words "membership fees" Not "Payments" or 'Payment plan" it is a "Membership Fee".

This comes with 2 consequences. First is the fact You have to maintain a membership with pimax wither or not you are paying for it. Secondly they can turn off your headset anytime they want to. The other issue is going to be with buying a used Pimax. Not much is going to stop a current owner from selling their pimax with part of the membership still outstanding meaning people are probably going to be purchasing used Pimax headsets on ebay that are bricked by Pimax due to the original owner not paying off the Membership fee. Ya I'm sorry, Pimax can take their membership and Shove it!

If I can't buy it outright ... I'm not buying it. Sadly I was actually looking forward to the Super

[Dangerzone]

35 minutes ago, Major_Mayhem said:

AS per Pimax's Webstore

"Payment Option 1: Pay membership fees at once with 12% discount $999 upfront + $32.99 membership fee * 24 mo. * 88% = $1,696 USD in total
Payment Option 2: Pay membership fees over 24 month $999 upfront + $32.99 membership fee * 24 mo. = $1,791 USD in total *You'll start paying the monthly membership fees in app 10 days after activating your Crystal Super. "

I purchased my CL with no membership requirements at all, and I'm definitely not paying a monthly fee, but I see what you're referring to here: https://pimax.com/products/pimax-crystal-light.

My guess is that this may just be a way of making it a little more affordable for people on the offset not to have to lay out the full amount so you have options. If so - I don't see this as being the same as Meta, and think it's OK, but I think it could be worded much better. 

But that's a guess. I'm finding it difficult to compare what the price is now, compared to what I purchased it for at release. They're showing a 'base' price of the unit as $599, but total cost of the unit as $858 outright. I think the total cost works close to what I paid for mine with no contract/obligations/subscription.

 

[Panzerlang]

As I understand it, they're doing it as a way of getting around people doing credit-card charge-backs.

In my opinion this is the water-shed moment at which this company needs to go under, for the protection of all potential consumers. The very idea that a paid or unpaid membership is required in order to own a discrete material object is patently absurd. There is absolutely ZERO upside, benefit or advantage for the consumer, only the opposite.

Edited November 26, 2024 by Panzerlang

[EightyDuce]

I asked questions along these lines in the other thread. It went in aswered.

However, since then, I've been doing some digging (reddit/discord) and some of the confusion seems to stem from the use of the word "membership" where it behaves more along the lines of financing. There is also speculation whether this is a preemptive approach to tariffs, a lower entry price followed by a "subscription" to fully pay off the headset.

Either way, this bring about the question of "always on" connection being required to use the device even after it has been paid off or if bought outright. What happens if/when Pimax verification server is unreachable. As far as I'm aware, this hasn't been answered yet; at least not where i could find it. 

[Panzerlang]

2 minutes ago, EightyDuce said:

I asked questions along these lines in the other thread. It went in aswered.

However, since then, I've been doing some digging (reddit/discord) and some of the confusion seems to stem from the use of the word "membership" where it behaves more along the lines of financing. There is also speculation whether this is a preemptive approach to tariffs, a lower entry price followed by a "subscription" to fully pay off the headset.

Either way, this bring about the question of "always on" connection being required to use the device even after it has been paid off or if bought outright. What happens if/when Pimax verification server is unreachable. As far as I'm aware, this hasn't been answered yet; at least not where i could find it. 

Simple observation/calculation, born of long hard experience over decades: NEVER assume anything a company does is for the benefit of its customers. And that in spades when a company has behaved as badly as this one has.

Too cynical? Allow me to quote the great Bertrand Russel: "The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who do not have it".

Pimax, to be regarded as a Great White in a swimming-pool. Lol.

[Dangerzone]

2 hours ago, EightyDuce said:

Either way, this bring about the question of "always on" connection being required to use the device even after it has been paid off or if bought outright. What happens if/when Pimax verification server is unreachable. As far as I'm aware, this hasn't been answered yet; at least not where i could find it. 

Just FYI - I don't have a subscription for my headset. I have switched Pimax play to 'offline mode', and my firewall shows that it still attempts to contact 4 different webservices while in offline mode.

I have denied it access on numerous occasions (so it couldn't connect) and the headset still functioned (however certain icons wouldn't show correctly), but I have been able to play it effectively offline of the internet.

I haven't however had it offline for an extended period of time though - so don't know if there are any long term issues there.

Pimax definitely needs to answer this question about what happens if the verification service is unavailable - both during the subscription period (is there a grace period, like DCS), as well as if purchased outright / after the 24 month period.

I'm also not happy with the fact that the software still tries to connect to numerous servers in offline mode, so this trend is concerning - especially if there's no clear clarification and answers to these questions.

Edited November 26, 2024 by Dangerzone

[Moxica]

My shipment, hopefully arriving today looks like this, though..
"Regular payment"

Edited November 26, 2024 by Moxica

[EightyDuce]

From what I've seen on reddit and discord, all previously purchased headsets will function as is. The question will be how a headset purchased under the new Pimax Prime "membership" behaves.

Not surprised there's outgoing telemetry from the software; something else that needs to be address. 

[maxTRX]

1 hour ago, EightyDuce said:

 

...Not surprised there's outgoing telemetry from the software; something else that needs to be address. 

That's just usual google data collecting crap and of course their chinese counterpart needs to be informed too  .  I've been running offline for weeks at a time and never had any prompts to login... so far.  When I say 'offline' I mean net adapter disabled.  Now, I ran into some strange behavior at the bootloader level (Grub) when I left the PCL's USB cable plugged in during my rig startup.  I think it's just Grub trying to figure out wtf it's dealing with, lol.  I'll get someone to help me to figure this one out.

I'm one of the lucky ones when it comes to my PCL's 'quality' and haven't run into any tech issues. I'm only running at 90hz with no FFR.  

I don't have any plans to buy Super and didn't even bother to check that part of Pimax website but if this is true what OP said about not having an option to pay full price and forget...

Well, before I use some colorful language I'd better go and check the website myself  

[EightyDuce]

4 minutes ago, maxTRX said:

That's just usual google data collecting crap and of course their chinese counterpart needs to be informed too  .  I've been running offline for weeks at a time and never had any prompts to login... so far.  When I say 'offline' I mean net adapter disabled.  Now, I ran into some strange behavior at the bootloader level (Grub) when I left the PCL's USB cable plugged in during my rig startup.  I think it's just Grub trying to figure out wtf it's dealing with, lol.  I'll get someone to help me to figure this one out.

I'm one of the lucky ones when it comes to my PCL's 'quality' and haven't run into any tech issues. I'm only running at 90hz with no FFR.  

I don't have any plans to buy Super and didn't even bother to check that part of Pimax website but if this is true what OP said about not having an option to pay full price and forget...

Well, before I use some colorful language I'd better go and check the website myself  

There is a one time option but it is bifurcated into cash + membership cost, either one time lump sum of membership or 24 payments. There no longer appears to be an option to just pay $899 or whatever it was before for the PCL. 

This enrollment into a membership is what's promoting a lot of the questioning on reddit as it is not clearly explained. 

[AlpineGTA]

What happened to the option to buy just the Crystal Light headset without the controllers? Under this new scheme there appears to be only the one option to buy with controllers, so it's now more expensive. Wasn't it previously something like $899 with controllers and $799 without controllers? I would think that a lot, if not most, people purchasing it solely for DCS would want the option to pay less for just the headset without controllers.

[Dragon1-1]

It kind of seems like just a harebrained way of implementing a payment plan, like for any big and pricey appliance. However, it also seems like a way to skirt consumer protection laws that apply to those plans. Honestly, I don't know what to think. On one hand, it looks kind of suspicious, on the other, it looks like a deal I could take. It does make it annoyingly hard to calculate the final price plus VAT, when I run the numbers, it's still quite noticeably on the steep side (about twice what I paid for the Reverb G2). 

Anyone knows how long their free shipping offer is going to last? I couldn't find info on that anywhere.

[Dangerzone]

9 hours ago, EightyDuce said:

Not surprised there's outgoing telemetry from the software; something else that needs to be address. 

Was reported here:

Calvin is going to chat to the Devs to address it. 

[EightyDuce]

57 minutes ago, Dangerzone said:

Was reported here:

Calvin is going to chat to the Devs to address it. 

Interesting, thought it appears that the last reply was over two months ago with no additional follow-up.

Furthermore, the question regarding the currently-existing Offline Mode being truly "offline" and how the headsets purchased going forward under Pimax Prime "membership" (as it doesn't appear you can opt out of it, even if paying upfront it still enrolls you into the unpaid "membership") are two separate issues to be addressed. From Pimax FAQ documentation, everything is tied to the serial of your headset. This is fine, however, it is not explained how this is verified/implemented. Is it verified once and that's it? Or does the status need to be verified each time, every 30 days, etc. Also, what happens if its unable to verify "paid-up" status, due to server issue or internet connectivity, what happens then? Does it render the headset useless.

All going back to what are the chances of one ending up with a $1000 piece of desktop flair because a headset cant communicate with the server, whether due to lack of connectivity or from one not wanting their paid-for hardware communicating with some random server (I have a fairly tight control over what happens across my network(s)...and if someone wants my data, I'll at least make them work for it).

Anyway, I hope as this program and new headsets into more hands we will likely have answers to these questions; at least long before I'm in the position to buy one.

Edited November 26, 2024 by EightyDuce

[Blackhawk163]

10 hours ago, AlpineGTA said:

What happened to the option to buy just the Crystal Light headset without the controllers? Under this new scheme there appears to be only the one option to buy with controllers, so it's now more expensive. Wasn't it previously something like $899 with controllers and $799 without controllers? I would think that a lot, if not most, people purchasing it solely for DCS would want the option to pay less for just the headset without controllers.

It’s how I bought mine. No controller. I wanted to buy the least expensive version that had a pay-walled local dimming option, but that too was unavailable to me. So I settled with the $799 version

[Dangerzone]

4 hours ago, EightyDuce said:

Interesting, thought it appears that the last reply was over two months ago with no additional follow-up.

Furthermore, the question regarding the currently-existing Offline Mode being truly "offline" and how the headsets purchased going forward under Pimax Prime "membership" (as it doesn't appear you can opt out of it, even if paying upfront it still enrolls you into the unpaid "membership") are two separate issues to be addressed.

Agreed. That's why I directed you to that thread in regards to the offline side of things, to keep things separate and easier to follow/address. 

Re it being 2 months ago - I didn't realise that much time had passed. I've just pinged Calvin on that thread for a followup.

[Aapje]

What I want from a company is to just offer a solid product for a fair price. Pimax has a history of dodgy pricing strategies, like promising full refunds for buyers of past products if they buy a certain future model which seems like an absurd strategy that they almost certainly will have to weasel out off to not lose a ton of money. With this weird membership I see no benefits to consumers, just all kinds of risks. If they actually wanted to just make the headset more accessible to people who have trouble saving up money, then a payment plan just for those users is the normal way to do that, not force everyone into a membership.

Aside from all the dodginess, it speaks to the company having management that doesn't focus on making the best product for the money, but spends their time on nonsense like this. It's the same vibe I get from their attempt to make a handheld console and their attempt to make the Crystal into a standalone device with battery: management that doesn't commit to making a product line the best it can be, but instead is constantly trying to find a way to magically make a lot more money, whether it is by financial shenanigans, or by chasing different market segments, without actually doing their homework in advance.

Note that none of this is a slight against Calvin and Jaap, who seem to do their best, but ultimately they are not in charge.

Edited November 27, 2024 by Aapje

[Calvin.Pimax]

18 hours ago, AlpineGTA said:

What happened to the option to buy just the Crystal Light headset without the controllers? Under this new scheme there appears to be only the one option to buy with controllers, so it's now more expensive. Wasn't it previously something like $899 with controllers and $799 without controllers? I would think that a lot, if not most, people purchasing it solely for DCS would want the option to pay less for just the headset without controllers.

There should be an option to purchase the headset only, without controllers. Let me check with the team if they've listed it on the store page.

[Blackhawk163]

Hmm, just checked the website, guess there’s no option to pay for a non local dimming version or one without handsets. However, the current option is less expensive than the previous price with handsets as that was 899 usd plus tax, whereas this is 886 plus tax. Still having an option where you don’t need to be a subscriber would be ideal. 
 

@Calvin.Pimax I have an issue with your support team regarding sales and the ED promotion that was going on last month.  That I would like to take on in direct messaging if you will.

[Dragon1-1]

I want a local dimming version without controllers, too. I'll see if I'll end up pulling the trigger on this (probably more towards Xmas than now, hopefully the shipping deal lasts), but I'm leaning towards buying it.

[Calvin.Pimax]

On 11/28/2024 at 12:24 AM, Blackhawk163 said:

@Calvin.Pimax I have an issue with your support team regarding sales and the ED promotion that was going on last month.  That I would like to take on in direct messaging if you will.

Please send me a DM. Thank you.

[scommander2]

Sorry, off topic of this thread.

Hi @Calvin.Pimax were you part of the interview in the following YouTube?

 

 

[Calvin.Pimax]

12 hours ago, scommander2 said:

Sorry, off topic of this thread.

Hi @Calvin.Pimax were you part of the interview in the following YouTube?

 

 

Yes, I am. 

[Major_Mayhem]

Some Youtube people are stating that paying off the Membership Fee all at once cost more than paying month to month but when I checked paying it all off at once has a 12% discount.

But I'll still be keeping my wallet away from this dumpster fire.

Really don't like the idea of a Membership Fee and Pimax having the ability to brick my device through a membership account.

Edited November 30, 2024 by Major_Mayhem

[SnowTiger]

I purchased a Pimax Crystal Light on Nov. 17th after being informed that I WOULD have my headset BEFORE Xmas. I paid in Full because I don't want to deal with monthly payments and I don't want ANY external factors preventing my hardware from working (like a lousy connection to Pimax or however their likely-crappy software works).
I've been getting jerked around from the get-go. And of course, Pimax doesn't list ANY Phone Numbers. You can correspond via Online Chat "almost real time" but that is ONLY for Sales. Once they have your money, you must submit a Ticket and Wait .. and wait and wait only to get some BS from somebody that can barely read or write in English.
Here it is, Dec. 23rd and there is no sign of my headset.

PIMAX is the most incompetent and frustrating company I have EVER dealt with in my 63 years, and I have dealt with some doozies.
I have demanded cancellation and a Full Refund for the last 2 weeks and I've still not received payment. I even got a notice from UPS on Friday saying a Tracking number has been created but UPS hasn't picked up the parcel yet. It's not the VR Headset. It's a Foam Insert and additional Head Strap which I can't use without the VR Headset. Heck, I already received the Premium Earphones 2 weeks ago and I purchased them almost 3 weeks after paying for the Headset.

It seems that nobody at Pimax knows what they are doing and they definitely do not give a damn about anyone especially once they have already received your money.
Thanks to Pimax, I have Nothing to put under the tree for my Grandson and I to enjoy DCS with (especially now that my HP Reverb G2 is no more than an expensive Paper Weight). These VR Companies are real "fly-by-night" outfits and a risky investment it seems. Speaking of the G2, it's too bad some smart developer couldn't create their own version of Windows Mixed Reality or whatever, allowing the G2 to Continue to Shine ?

Anyway, my advice to everyone is ... Move On to ANYTHING ELSE but PIMAX. If you have any issues at all, you will be months trying to rectify it and will likely get jacked around from the start.

Edited December 23, 2024 by SnowTiger