no evidence The wobbly flight model

[BIGNEWY]

2 hours ago, Pilum said:

So attached to this post is a track (Thrustmaster stick with short extension 25% curve) showing that even though I hardly move the stick at all, the aircraft starts oscillating around when I do the first attempt at hockup where I try to do minute corrections to try to fly straight into the basket.

This is unsuccessful so I back off, then come back in again in a path that I judge will hit the basket basically not touching the stick because I know that doing so will start the PIO’s.

So this shows exactly the same problem as out lined in the other videos I posted previously, but in addition to that showing that I need some more practice to master the in-game FM as well. 

But this is not the point: the point is that this in-game method bears no resemblance whatsoever to what is going on in the Growler video below where the pilot has crisp and responsive control with no tendencies to PIO at all during the whole sequence. He can (and does) chase and fly straight into the basket. No careful more or less straight approach from afar into the basket flying needed like in DCS.

 

Wobbly FM example 1.trk 1015.93 kB · 1 download

Thank you for the track, but I am not seeing any issue, it maybe just a case of more practice or playing with your curves a little to get the right feel for you. 

Try with turbulence on and off, see if you notice a difference also.

[SharpeXB]

PIO happens in RL too, it’s not just a product of game flight models.

https://youtu.be/R6IkT2K9DlE?si=X2kw5osZ5ag-WU06

 

[Dragon1-1]

3 hours ago, Pilum said:

You can see that as soon as he moves the stick, the aircraft moves as well. However, and here is the important part: As soon as he returns the stick the movement stops immediately, and there is absolutely no tendency to PIO.

That's exactly what is difference between a premium stick and a cheap one. You have a deadzone in your stick, it's as simple as that. Probably a center detent, as well. I don't (but with the CH kit, I used to), and most people telling you it's not a problem with the module don't have it, either, because most forum regulars are on the expensive hardware. In the real aircraft, you would barely be able to see a small stick deflection on camera, you probably don't even realize how many small adjustment are there in that Growler video that you just aren't seeing, because they're so subtle. My Winwing Orion 1 can do a similar thing (once configured properly), only the movements are more obvious visually due to being mounted directly on the gimbal. It's a dual cam, all metal design with a soft center and no breakout force, and the jet responds to the slightest touch. Indeed, in the F-16, the longstanding advice is to hold the stick with your fingers and rest your hands on the base. Works with the real jet, the TM Warthog and probably with my Orion (I developed a different technique by now, so I haven't tried that), but it very much did not with the CH.

It's this deadzone that makes AAR far harder than it should be, induces PIO and makes you tear your hair out. I've been there, so I know.  Buying an Orion 1 won't make you an AAR pro on its own, but it'll make learning it less painful. It's not impossible to AAR with a deadzone (been there, as well), but it's very tiring and requires you to sling the stick across the deadzone with both great speed and precision, as well as anticipating the aircraft.

Edited December 3, 2024 by Dragon1-1

[Pilum]

49 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Thank you for the track, but I am not seeing any issue, it maybe just a case of more practice or playing with your curves a little to get the right feel for you. 

Try with turbulence on and off, see if you notice a difference also.

You know, TBH, I suspected all a long that this was why you were so insistent that I do a track myself when the evidence has been there all along in the other DCS track videos I posted earlier on. 

I'll happily admit I need more practice on mastering the in-game FM. I think I even said so in the OP. But to reiterate, this is not the point: The point with this thread was to understand if the wobbliness in the DCS F-18 FM was intentional or not. And now based on your answer, it seems that you truly believe that the wobbliness and tendency to PIO we have in-game FM mirrors the reality we see in the IRL videos I posted.

And seeing you carry the "ED team" tag under your sig, I'm assuming your answer represents DCS official position on this, which I must say I find a bit disappointing.

But if being an Ostrich and sticking your head into the sand is going to be DCS position on this then so be it. I have no intention of banging my head against a wall of denial. Arguing with a flight sim developer who has made up his mind and won't even acknowledge the problem is an exercise in futility.

[BIGNEWY]

4 minutes ago, Pilum said:

You know, TBH, I suspected all a long that this was why you were so insistent that I do a track myself when the evidence has been there all along in the other DCS track videos I posted earlier on. 

I'll happily admit I need more practice on mastering the in-game FM. I think I even said so in the OP. But to reiterate, this is not the point: The point with this thread was to understand if the wobbliness in the DCS F-18 FM was intentional or not. And now based on your answer, it seems that you truly believe that the wobbliness and tendency to PIO we have in-game FM mirrors the reality we see in the IRL videos I posted.

And seeing you carry the "ED team" tag under your sig, I'm assuming your answer represents DCS official position on this, which I must say I find a bit disappointing.

But if being an Ostrich and sticking your head into the sand is going to be DCS position on this then so be it. I have no intention of banging my head against a wall of denial. Arguing with a flight sim developer who has made up his mind and won't even acknowledge the problem is an exercise in futility.

I do work for Eagle Dynamics yes, I am an associate producer and community manager. 

I mean no disrespect but we often have people come here claiming something is wrong and have no real evidence of it. Our flight models are the best in the industry, they are data driven and tested by real pilots and subject matter experts. 

We are always happy to take a look at claims something is wrong if there is evidence for it, but in this case I am not seeing any issue.

thank you  

[Pilum]

1 minute ago, BIGNEWY said:

I do work for Eagle Dynamics yes, I am an associate producer and community manager. 

I mean no disrespect but we often have people come here claiming something is wrong and have no real evidence of it. Our flight models are the best in the industry, they are data driven and tested by real pilots and subject matter expects. 

We are always happy to take a look at claims something is wrong if there is evidence for it, but in this case I am not seeing any issue.

thank you  

Well, I mean no disrespect either, and I think the DCS F-18 on the whole is a great module, but also that the air-to-air refueling could do with some refinements based on the evidence that has been brought up in this thread.

However, I see you classified this thread as a "no evidence" thread and on that point we just have to agree to disagree.

[BIGNEWY]

As mentioned earlier in the thread we want to improve the A2A refuelling experience, particularly with basket physics, but it is something for the future. 

If you do want to present evidence in the future feel free to DM me directly. 

thank you