Incorrect trim response

[Wizz]

Hi all, I'm noticing something annoying with using trim on the Apache with my FFB Rhino.

Whenever I engage the trim function and release it, it causes a slight aft trim setting, almost felt as a pulse. If I quickly engage and disengage the trim button, this will cause the aircraft nose to pitch up significantly. Another example is when I'm triming for level flight and engage trim - the cyclic won't remain where I've released the trim, but be further aft causing a slight climb. I can't replicate this issue with any other DCS helicopter, and changing the trim settings in special tab has no effect.

Is anyone else having this issue? It feels like the SCAS doing something intentional rather than a settings issue (though happy to be corrected).

(Incidentally, it's good to see they've taken some of the ridiculous sensitivity out of the pedals)

[Schlomo1933]

Check if your stick is balanced.

I have the Rhino FFB base with the gunfighter ultimate grip connected. So the stick is always alittle bit aft and right. Caused by the wheight of the gunfighter. But in the rhino software u can adjust a counterbalance .

So in DCS my Stick is on the exact trimmed position. 

[Wizz]

Stick is definitely balanced - it's fine with other DCS aircraft (and other sims). This is a software input causing the trim function to slightly pitch aft when released.

[corbu1]

You think this is with the latest yesterdays update? Didn‘t notice problems with older ones, but haven‘t the latest patch installed yet.

[Wizz]

I think it could be, but I revisted the Apache because of the fix to the pedals sensitivity - that's to say that I haven't played it a lot recently and couldn't say conclusively if the issue I have is related to this patch. Still, it's the first time I've seen it, and I really am convinced it's a DCS setting. Always happy to be corrected though.

[SloppyDog]

9 hours ago, Wizz said:

Hi all, I'm noticing something annoying with using trim on the Apache with my FFB Rhino.

Whenever I engage the trim function and release it, it causes a slight aft trim setting, almost felt as a pulse. If I quickly engage and disengage the trim button, this will cause the aircraft nose to pitch up significantly. Another example is when I'm triming for level flight and engage trim - the cyclic won't remain where I've released the trim, but be further aft causing a slight climb. I can't replicate this issue with any other DCS helicopter, and changing the trim settings in special tab has no effect.

Is anyone else having this issue? It feels like the SCAS doing something intentional rather than a settings issue (though happy to be corrected).

(Incidentally, it's good to see they've taken some of the ridiculous sensitivity out of the pedals)

They've taken out a lot of sensitivity from the pedals/tail rotor. It is much more flyable now. Regarding the pitch up attitude, I've noticed it when you are taking off or from hover to speed up. It has a pitch up tendency, that I need to input a lot of forward stick to compensate for. And about the trim, I did not experience what you have been experiencing. 

[Floyd1212]

12 hours ago, Wizz said:

Another example is when I'm triming for level flight and engage trim - the cyclic won't remain where I've released the trim, but be further aft causing a slight climb.

Could you have a curve applied to the cyclic axis causing this?

[corbu1]

Curves set are not recommended for FFB setups. The VPForce Rhino will like that.

[JIGGAwest]

I have had the Apache from day one and have 2000+ hours flying with this module. I have a non FFB stick (Virpil Alpha stick, Virpil TMC2, TMC3 bases) flying for more half of the time. I also have the Rhino FFB.

I do want to detail the effects that I am experiencing. I also have the ability to test both a standard stick and base and I also have a Rhino FFB. But, for now, I'll share what I see with the Rhino FFB ecosystem.

When using the Rhino FFB and CYCLIC TRIMMER MODE - INSTANT TRIM (FFB FRIENDLY), I have TelemFFB running with many of the effects turned on. In the VPForce FFB config software, I have hardware force trim checked and have the force trim bound to the same button as the DCS binding. Having TelemFFB off, the result is NOT the same.

What is demonstrated in the video (Trimrelease.mp4) is me holding the DCS control binding - Force Trim/Hold Mode Switch - R/Up, then releasing it. You can see when I release the force trim the aircraft either rolls left or right and pitches up or down. It's enough of an effect to severely affect stability. While I am pressing and releasing the force trim, I am holding the physical stick position in the exact same spot when released and depressed. I do make minor flight adjustments when holding the force trim in parts of the video.

I do believe there is an issue with the TeleFFB that causes this. Could it be the force trim button bound to the same key? I am not sure.

 

Trimrelase.mp4 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d2nlpAXvApaiBLlqpaMfoFC8hfZC-gNq/view?usp=sharing

Edited December 27, 2024 by JIGGAwest

[corbu1]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb JIGGAwest:

I have had the Apache from day one and have 2000+ hours flying with this module. I have a non FFB stick (Virpil Alpha stick, Virpil TMC2, TMC3 bases) flying for more half of the time. I also have the Rhino FFB.

I do want to detail the effects that I am experiencing. I also have the ability to test both a standard stick and base and I also have a Rhino FFB. But, for now, I'll share what I see with the Rhino FFB ecosystem.

When using the Rhino FFB and CYCLIC TRIMMER MODE - INSTANT TRIM (FFB FRIENDLY), I have TelemFFB running with many of the effects turned on. In the VPForce FFB config software, I have hardware force trim checked and have the force trim bound to the same button as the DCS binding. Having TelemFFB off, the result is NOT the same.

What is demonstrated in the video (Trimrelease.mp4) is me holding the DCS control binding - Force Trim/Hold Mode Switch - R/Up, then releasing it. You can see when I release the force trim the aircraft either rolls left or right and pitches up or down. It's enough of an effect to severely affect stability. While I am pressing and releasing the force trim, I am holding the physical stick position in the exact same spot when released and depressed. I do make minor flight adjustments when holding the force trim in parts of the video.

I do believe there is an issue with the TeleFFB that causes this. Could it be the force trim button bound to the same key? I am not sure.

 

Trimrelase.mp4 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d2nlpAXvApaiBLlqpaMfoFC8hfZC-gNq/view?usp=sharing

Which TelemFFB effects do you have activated?

Did you already tried sharing your findings in the VPForce discord channel?

[corbu1]

Reading your post again, did you activate Force trim in VPforce configurator and in DCS set FFB active duty both at the same time? They will untere each other then, I think.

[JIGGAwest]

On 12/27/2024 at 5:09 AM, corbu1 said:

Reading your post again, did you activate Force trim in VPforce configurator and in DCS set FFB active duty both at the same time? They will untere each other then, I think.

Yes, I had them both active. And the result of both being active causes this issue. The reason I had this set was because I had a "sticky" enabled for spring force saturation. You can not have any "sticky" enabled and get force trim feedback from DCS. 

I have learned you should not have hardware force trim active in VPForce configurator or have any "sticky" active while using the DCS Apache and TelemFFB. Use the DCS trim binds only. 

Edited December 28, 2024 by JIGGAwest

[corbu1]

Yes, that might be it. Use the FFB implemented in DCS for the Apache. Cause FFB force trim is already in DCS implemented it‘s not necessary to activate Force trim in the VPForce configurator at the same time.

[Wizz]

Thanks for all your replies and thoughts here. I'm using the DCS force trim only - i.e. my Rhino force trim setting is off. I'll keep trying to work through some suggested fixes and report back here if I crack it.