This F-15 pilot has had enough

[Hog_driver]

12 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

I dont think some of you appreciate how complex this project is. Its going to take time. 

But could you at least improve the AI in the meantime? Even without the DCE, it would make missions and campaigns more immersive.

Just a few days ago, I made a simple mission, an F-15C vs MiG-23 (both Ace AI) and the combat didn't look good. I'm not very good at dogfighting, but I was able to shoot down the MiG much faster and more efficiently.

[BIGNEWY]

3 minutes ago, Hog_driver said:

But could you at least improve the AI in the meantime? Even without the DCE, it would make missions and campaigns more immersive.

Just a few days ago, I made a simple mission, an F-15C vs MiG-23 (both Ace AI) and the combat didn't look good. I'm not very good at dogfighting, but I was able to shoot down the MiG much faster and more efficiently.

AI is constantly being worked on, if you see an issue please post a short track replay example for us to take a look at. Often we find AI are given conflicting commands in advanced waypoint actions so if you see an issue it needs to be checked. 

 

[Hog_driver]

I can't send you a track at this moment, I'll just say that the F-15, at least once, while being at the MiG's 6 o'clock, performed a barrel roll instead of shooting. What was the point of that?

[BIGNEWY]

Just now, Hog_driver said:

I can't send you a track at this moment, I'll just say that the F-15, at least once, while being at the MiG's 6 o'clock, performed a barrel roll instead of shooting. What was the point of that?

without a track replay its difficult to say, post a track replay in a new thread, lets not derail this one

thanks 

[Hog_driver]

Spoiler alert!

After almost 10 minutes of turning, climbing, diving, rolling, dropping flares, etc., this F-15 pilot says "nah, it's pointless anyway" and ejects

 

F15vsMiG23_eject.trk

[Hog_driver]

Ok, here you go!

 

[BIGNEWY]

posts moved here. 

thanks we will take a look 

[BIGNEWY]

I could be wrong but it looks to me it could be a fuel issue, it is in burners constantly trying to get into a  kill position, once it runs out he ejects. 

 

[Hog_driver]

1 minute ago, BIGNEWY said:

I could be wrong but it looks to me it could be a fuel issue, it is in burners constantly trying to get into a  kill position, once it runs out he ejects. 

 

Well, maybe, but then he should rather have thought "bingo fuel, time to RTB" and RTB. Do you think that walking back to base across the desert is a more reasonable option?

[BIGNEWY]

2 minutes ago, Hog_driver said:

Well, maybe, but then he should rather have thought "bingo fuel, time to RTB" and RTB. Do you think that walking back to base across the desert is a more reasonable option?

You need to set the advance waypoint actions correctly. 

He is set to CAP and he will fight to the death in the current mission

[Hog_driver]

Well, I thought that AI actions such as "check fuel, if bingo then RTB" are part of the core sim.

[BIGNEWY]

4 minutes ago, Hog_driver said:

Well, I thought that AI actions such as "check fuel, if bingo then RTB" are part of the core sim.

you need to tell the AI what to do if you want them to do specific things

you need to set advanced waypoint action RTB on bingo fuel 

[Hog_driver]

Fine. But if AI F-15 can't shoot down AI MiG-23, where's "intelligence" in that? Poor speed management, missed opportunities, pointless maneuvers... and you need a working AI for the DCE.

[BIGNEWY]

4 minutes ago, Hog_driver said:

Fine. But if AI F-15 can't shoot down AI MiG-23, where's "intelligence" in that? Poor speed management, missed opportunities, pointless maneuvers... and you need a working AI for the DCE.

Now we are getting into a different discussion, you think the F-15C should win every time? 

The AI have lots of options, you can change skill levels you can set advanced waypoint actions, you can have the scenario play out the way you want it, but you do need to give them the commands to do that. 

 

[BIGNEWY]

In the attached mission both pilots are set to ace. 

They will do everything they can not to get shot down. 

Set the Mig to a lower skill level if you want the F-15 to have the advantage. 

[Hog_driver]

3 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Now we are getting into a different discussion, you think the F-15C should win every time? 

 

Well, I may be wrong, but I think it should win most of the time. I tried four times; the F-15 won once, the F-15 pilot ejected twice and the MiG-23 crashed once. Do you think it's a reasonable result for Ace AI?

[BIGNEWY]

1 minute ago, Hog_driver said:

Well, I may be wrong, but I think it should win most of the time. I tried four times; the F-15 won once, the F-15 pilot ejected twice and the MiG-23 crashed once. Do you think it's a reasonable result for Ace AI?

the mission is set at low level, with no RTB on bingo fuel, they will fight to the death, the mission plays out exactly as it was setup. 

Again you just need to play with the AI skill level and advance waypoint actions for RTB on bingo fuel. 

thank you 

[Hog_driver]

All right, apart from bingo fuel and stuff like that; I experimented with various AI settings and results were different - sometimes the MiG crashed, sometimes it was shot down. But still, Ace F-15 committed mistakes such as overshooting the target, which could be dangerous. I think it should be addressed.

[BIGNEWY]

No body is going to fly a perfect sortie every time, not the AI or a human. If you want a scenario to play out the way you want it to giving the AI the skill level required is enough and the advanced waypoint action it needs will help. 

Regarding manoeuvre kills or hitting the ground, setting a high altitude for the engagement will reduce the chance for a collision. 

thank you 

[Hog_driver]

54 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

you think the F-15C should win every time? 

 

As I said, I'm not very good at this, but when flying the F-15c against Ace AI in the Flogger, I usually shoot it down in a minute or two (after the merge, not shooting head-on).

[BIGNEWY]

2 hours ago, Hog_driver said:

As I said, I'm not very good at this, but when flying the F-15c against Ace AI in the Flogger, I usually shoot it down in a minute or two (after the merge, not shooting head-on).

A well trained or practice pilot should more often than not defeat the AI. It shows you are dedicated and talented with your craft  

[Hog_driver]

14 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

A well trained or practice pilot should more often than not defeat the AI. It shows you are dedicated and talented with your craft  

I see what you did there!  You clever...

But no! You shall not silence me! Improve the AI 'cause I need more challenge!

Edited December 30, 2024 by Hog_driver

[BIGNEWY]

31 minutes ago, Hog_driver said:

I see what you did there!  You clever...

But no! You shall not silence me! Improve the AI 'cause I need more challenge!

 

We will continue to improve the AI, as mentioned we are constantly working on them. But to get the most out of the AI you should take the time to learn the advanced waypoint actions in the editor. 

thank you 

[Hog_driver]

11 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

But to get the most out of the AI you should take the time to learn the advanced waypoint actions in the editor. 

 

All right, but it's seemingly a simple task - don't get shot down, shoot down the enemy plane. What advanced actions are necessary? Fight better? Be a better pilot?

[Geezer66]

I have to agree that the AI is pathetic. It has regressed considerably over the past year or so. In the past the AI would actually accelerate and loft missiles then turn 180 degrees to defend and were actually challenging and fun for me to fight against. No matter what settings I use in the mission editor - Sweep, Cap, Intercept, launch at max range, launch at between max and no escape, launch by target estimate, nothing matters. ROE: Evade fire they often just turn away 40 degrees or so and cruise right into my amraams.

Whatever came of the collaboration with Growling Sidewinder? There were supposed to be many improvements being worked on but it appears to have been dropped.

This was from the 2023 and Beyond newsletter:

Unit AI Improvements

In 2022 we saw great improvements to the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) and Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM) AI for our jet aircraft. Moving forward, we now intend to improve multi-ship BVR and Air Combat Maneuvering (ACM) tactics and appropriate AI tactics for World War II aircraft.

Nothing at all has improved and I don't even consider DCS a combat sim at this point in time. It is merely for startup practice and flying around sightseeing unless you enjoy online team deathmatch which I have no interest in.

 

Edited December 31, 2024 by Geezer66