Human WSO + Bombs = USELESS!

[Tshark]

The group I fly with have been trying to get ground ordinance on target with human WSOs for months without success.  It does not matter the type of ordinance or bombing method.  If we use Jester then the bombs work as expected, no matter the ordinance or bombing method.

We have even tried to let Jester make the WSO settings, then jump into the back seat to see what he did.  Unfortunately, the settings zero themselves out as soon as you occupy the rear seat.

The only thing we can figure is that there is such a de-sync between the human players that ground pounding is next to useless.  We are now avoiding flying the F-4E, which is really a shame.

Is ANYBODY having success bombing with human WSOs?

 

[Zabuzard]

Sounds odd. People report daily on our Discord server that stuff works fine and it also works when we fly with our testers.

Smells like you guys might be missing a step. If tutorials and manuals dont help, perhaps you can share a video.

Or at least some details what exactly you are doing.

Cheers

[granola1861]

Would love a more step by step manual...

Tutorials are all over the place with workarounds having to be used to get results.

For an aircraft that was touted as multiplayer ready, it seems that Jester gets the attention.

 

Please help out with these requests.  We've tried multiple techniques and a lot of variations have been attempted on different computers, different missions, after DCS repairs, etc. We love flying the Phantom and look forward to the potential it offers. It's a great module but some better guidance is warranted.

 

Thanks in advance,

-Climber (WSO to the OP)

[Zabuzard]

Would love a more step by step manual...
Tutorials are all over the place with workarounds having to be used to get results.
For an aircraft that was touted as multiplayer ready, it seems that Jester gets the attention.
 
Please help out with these requests.  We've tried multiple techniques and a lot of variations have been attempted on different computers, different missions, after DCS repairs, etc. We love flying the Phantom and look forward to the potential it offers. It's a great module but some better guidance is warranted.
 
Thanks in advance,
-Climber (WSO to the OP)

Im not sure what to explain in detail now without essentially repeating what the manual already describes here:

https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/stores/air_to_ground/bombs/employment/overview.html

and

https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/procedures/bombs/overview.html

If you would give some details, for example which weapon and bombing mode you are trying to get working, I could go into detail and try to fill the gaps that the manual might have left - if any.

I understand your frustration but it must be something you are missing in your procedure, perhaps sth simple even.
The aircraft is fully multicrew compatible and constantly tested for it by us, our testers and the community. There are no known bugs that would prevent you from delivering bombs in multicrew. People are doing it successfully as we speak.

So lets try to focus on figuring out what might be wrong in your procedure. If you can provide a track or details that would be super helpful! :)

[granola1861]

Alright here is the first of my 2 track files.  Tshark will be posting his from his side as well.  I was the WSO for both.

The Mk82 test I entered the variables into the bomb computer and added all the output info into the WRCS computer (I guess that isn't correct).  The first pass was way short.  The second run all I set was the drag coefficient and  the advance according to the computer (still entered the other variables but ignored the other outputs.  We shacked the target!

 

The Mk 20's were a different story.  I've read that DCS physics with cluster bombs is goofy so I used the same DT setup as the second Mk 82 pass that had hits.  Tshark set his aim center target and around 3-4 miles I grabbed the radar lock (same as I always do).  These were short by a couple of thousand feet.  So we decided to offset our targeting to be long for the second pass and surprise our bombs hit long (right where Tshark had the hud on as I locked the radar.  Befuddled to say the least!!!

I will post my second file next in thread due to file size.

 

 

 

Bomb test Mk82.trk

File #2

See above post.

 

It seems that lots of confusion still exists.  We have several people all trying (with some former pilots and some pretty smart folks too) and we are getting inconsistent results.  Please take a look at our tracks and help us out.

 

Best,

Climber

Bomb test Mk 20.trk

[Tshark]

Still having problems.  We made up a kneeboard that is directly from the manual.  Four drops with Mk82s and Rockeyes all Dive Toss over two days and only one drop on target.
Here are track files from the pilots PC.  This first is with Mk20.

Any help would be appreciated.

server-20250222-172129.trk

Edited February 23 by Tshark
Upload of trackfile

[Zabuzard]

Thanks, we will have a look at whats going on with ur sorties.

Something I noticed at a quick glance is that there might be a possible confusion on what "Bomb on Target" in the Bombing Tool means. It looks like you guys might think it means how many bombs you want to drop. But it instead means which bomb of your pattern you want to hit the target directly, shifting the bombing pattern forward or aft. For example if you drop 12 bombs and want it to be centered around the target you would enter 5 or 6 as the "Bomb on Target".

Consequently, if you enter 12 when dropping 12 bombs, the majority of your bombs would essentially land short (with the last bomb hitting the target).

Cheers

EDIT: I think I confused this thread with another. We will look into your tracks, thank you. Ill let the above stay though, so that it helps any readers who might have confused Bomb on Target

Edited February 23 by Zabuzard

[Tshark]

Here is the second track file. This with Mk82s.

Phantom Bomb Test-20250220-175158.trk

Edited February 23 by Tshark

[granola1861]

So where in the heck is that clarification of bomb on target? 

 

That is the garbage we are talking about. The manual should say that. It's nice to have these cutesy hyperlinks and all but it misses readability! 

I appreciate the help but help us all by making a clear manual.

 

Sorry to sound so ticked off but we've been looking for answers and been told,"it's not the game it's you" over and over. 

[Zabuzard]

So where in the heck is that clarification of bomb on target? 
 
That is the garbage we are talking about. The manual should say that. It's nice to have these cutesy hyperlinks and all but it misses readability! 
I appreciate the help but help us all by making a clear manual.
 
Sorry to sound so ticked off but we've been looking for answers and been told,"it's not the game it's you" over and over. 

I dont think we ever put the blame on the users. In fact, I am trying to use every situation I can to make sure everyone (especially in our team) understands that user mistakes are typically due to lack of good documentation/tutorials/reference material.

So while its ultimately the users mistake, the best way to improve a situation is to improve the teaching material.

Im not sure why ur reaction is so heated. I am sorry if you perceived it differently.

Please note that the manual is open source, everyone in the community (you included) can edit it and contribute and improve it for the benefit of every user. We are one big team

The explanation of the "Bomb on Target" option shown in the Bombing Tool is explained by the manual in the Bombing Tools chapter:
https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/dcs/bombing_computer.html#bomb-on-target

The manual also has a global search function, enter "Bomb on Target" and it will lead you there, cheers.

[Tshark]

There is some confusion within the manual.  In DT for instance there are several places in the manual that say no preparation is needed by the WSO:

http://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/stores/air_to_ground/bombs/employment/overview.html

Yet, in this kneeboard a weapon coefficient is needed:

http://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/procedures/bombs/bombs_dive_toss_and_laydown.html

So, do we use the bombing calculator, inputting speed, release alt, etc., to get a coefficient?

Could you clarify please.

[Zabuzard]

There is some confusion within the manual.  In DT for instance there are several places in the manual that say no preparation is needed by the WSO:
http://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/stores/air_to_ground/bombs/employment/overview.html
Yet, in this kneeboard a weapon coefficient is needed:
http://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/procedures/bombs/bombs_dive_toss_and_laydown.html
So, do we use the bombing calculator, inputting speed, release alt, etc., to get a coefficient?
Could you clarify please.

DT requires input of the drag coefficient (and a working INS).

Drag coefficient depends on release params like speed/alt. To which extend usually depends on the type of bomb used, as well as how extreme your planned profile is.
So some form of rough preplanning is required for DT as well. But in many reasonable cases the default drag coefficient would be so close to the real drag coefficient that you would hit as long as you do not deviate heavily from the plan - making it a rather flexible and convenient mode to use.

[Tshark]

So, no suggestions on what we might do differently to get bombs on target?  

I wonder if WSO de-sync or lag could account for the difference in accuracy compared to Jester?

[WinOrLose]

On 2/27/2025 at 5:32 PM, Tshark said:

So, no suggestions on what we might do differently to get bombs on target?  

I wonder if WSO de-sync or lag could account for the difference in accuracy compared to Jester?

De-sync and the fact the bombing calculator isn’t accurate doesn’t help. 

[Zabuzard]

You guys must be doing something wrong. Everyone else in our tester group and the Discord community seems to have no problem hitting stuff in Multicrew.
And whenever someone had trouble it usually turned out to be user error (no offense though, its a complex topic and very easy to make mistakes).

Im very confident we can figure out what's going wrong in your procedure as soon as we (or the community) checks out your track files.

[Tshark]

It may very well be our error, but it is not just the two of us.  There are six of us who all have the same issue.  The six of us comprise of a nuclear weld quality inspector, major airline pilot instructor, retired collision re-constructionist, and three that are in IT/programming, all with 3+ years of experience playing DCS almost daily.  We are use to learning and troubleshooting technical matters.  Manuals on technical procedures are standard fare for us.  We have spent quite a few hours trying to get bombs on target with a human WSO with no success.

If the Phantom were not such an iconic aircraft we would have given up on HB's version of it quite a while back.

I do hope someone takes the time to look at our track files and delve into this issue so that a clarification can be added to the HB F-4 manual for others as well as us.

Edited March 1 by Tshark

[Zabuzard]

35 minutes ago, Tshark said:

It may very well be our error, but it is not just the two of us.  There are six of us who all have the same issue.  The six of us comprise of a nuclear weld quality inspector, major airline pilot instructor, retired collision re-constructionist, and three that are in IT/programming, all with 3+ years of experience playing DCS almost daily.  We are used to learning and troubleshooting technical matters.  Manuals on technical procedures are standard fare for us.  We have spent quite a few hours trying to get bombs on target with a human WSO with no success.

If the Phantom were not such an iconic aircraft we would have given up on HB's version of it quite a while back.

I do hope someone takes the time to look at our track files and delve into this issue so that a clarification can be added to the HB F-4 manual for others as well as us.

I did not intent to insult you, sorry if you perceived it that way.

I am trying to prevent rumors of "desyncs" and the bombing tool being "useless" when it seems to work for the majority and most reports (about 90%) turning out to be user error.

We share the same interest and we will identify and fix the cause of the problem. Being it our code or the manual

Edited March 1 by Zabuzard

[Tshark]

No offense taken, just wanted to clarify that the problem was not experienced by two noob players who can't RTFM.  For the six of us, bombing in the F-4 with a human WSO does appear useless.

Desync issues are not uncommon in DCS.  It is suspected as there are other issues with two human crews of the F-4.  

For instance, if you start a multiplayer mission with the mission paused until both slots are filled in a F-4 you will not have any counter-measures when the mission is un-paused.  Start the same session with a human pilot, mission un-paused, and have the human WSO join (displacing Jester) then you have counter-measures.

We have submitted the requested track files and WSO descriptions.  It does not appear the track files have been downloaded even once and we are being told "you are doing something wrong" with no further clarification.  You can see how that can cause frustration.  I do sincerely hope that it is user error, then it will be something we can correct immediately and not wait for a patch.

How can we help further?