Bomber group formation coding is INFURIATING!!!

[Philip Mongeon]

Ok guys, seriously!

I have a few questions :

1. Why, when we create a plane object, and then increase the number to 2 or 3 or 4... shouldn't the LEAD plane be, oh i don't know, THE LEADER? why do the planes get added IN FRONT of the lead plane ? no matter the orientation, no matter how many waypoints it has, all additional planes get placed AHEAD of the lead plane. "follow the leader, leader, leader, follow the leader" is how it goes, not "ahead of the leader, leader, leader, ahead of the leader"....

2. how come when we create a formation, using DCS "pre configured" variables(ww2 bomber element), do we get formation deterioration ? ( see track aptly named FORMATION DETERIORATION at 0631). You have to appreciate the frustration given the price tag of DCS and its DLCs. The fact that getting planes to fly in formation in a straight line seems to be a bit too much to ask...and you know what? Maybe i'm doing it wrong... but i tried different variations and having a LEAD group with all others follow it using the BIG formation variables: LEADER = LEAD-RIGHT-LEFT-BACK, RIGHT = LEAD-RIGHT-LEFT-BACK, LEFT = LEAD-RIGHT-LEFT-BACK, BACK = LEAD-RIGHT-LEFT-BACK totaling 64 planes, in a "diamond 4 formation". AND YES, every group of 4 has flight options set on the group, + 1 waypoint to give it a heading (previous mistake of mine that you guys corrected me on).

Also, it makes no difference if the elements have 2, 3 or 4 planes, the mysterious slowing down occurs regardless.

group formation setting : WW2 Bomber Element Height Separation

 

at the start of the mission, formation is somewhat elegant (excessive gap between LEADER group and RIGHT/LEFT/BACK, but at this point, it's the least of the issues.

So all 64 planes are headed in the same direction, at the same speed, aiming for the same target. BARELY 1 minute in flight, we start seeing formation deterioration... WHYYYY!!!????? we have the RIGHT group's LEAD squadron that starts to slow down... By the time we arrive at the target and bombs away, you guessed it, it's right over the back squadron... KABoom! 

Keep in mind that all groups of 4 were copy paste from the same group. The only things that changed were the positions in the formation. So where is it getting the mysterious information to SLOWDOWN when all other groups are maintaining speed ? 

After this considerable loss of assets and bomb release, maintaining formation is completely impossible. planes start doing rolls, they go in a whatever direction they want, can't maintain altitude, do spin rolls as if they were Extra300 aerobatic planes. climb a few thousand feet only to descend back smashing right in another group(which the crippled planes will for some reason salvo a complete bomb load even though bombs have already been dropped) although this might be sim options related(possibly unlimited ammo),...

 

I mean, if 64 planes in a straight line is too much, maybe prevent users from doing so. 

 

The only way i found how to achieve as high as 128 planes flying without a single mid-air collision is by MANUALLY plotting EACH group of 4's' waypoints 1 by 1. it was so time consuming that i questioned the worth of DCS at this point. But after spending over 1000$ on DCS and addons, DLCs, planes, etc, and have something as simple as straight line formation flight be so poorly coded, yeah.. i feel robbed! many other flight sims have no issues, yet, the MOST expensive flight simulator available to the consumer public just can't seem to properly code formation flight for AI planes!!!! IN A STRAIGHT line! we haven't even addressed the clusterF*** that ensues if we dare try to make the formation make GRADUAL turns that span over hundreds of miles just to achieve a 180.

DCS_not_able_to_fly_in_simple_formation.trk Formation_deterioration_starting_at_0631.trk

[rwbishUP]

Yeah, @Philip Mongeon, it's a joke.

[Mr_sukebe]

I managed to get a 48 plane group 300 miles and through several waypoints yesterday.

It did take a bit of trial and error 

[Philip Mongeon]

@Mr_sukebe What were your formation settings ? were you using big formation WW2 bomber element height separation ?

 

[Mr_sukebe]

Now you're asking.  As mentioned, it took some trial and error to get it to work.  IIRC:

• Before getting stuck in, I'd looked up typical bomber formation, as used by the 8th
• Each flight had 3 aircraft (not the 4 that DCS can seemingly support)
• Built the front (lead) flight or 3, gave them the flight formation for bomber.  Set them for "late activation", which I'll come back to later
• Picked a suitable generic livery and full bomb load.  DCS has a number of "generic" B17 liveries, meaning that it's now easy to set say the front 12 aircraft (4 flights) as a specific squadron, then the next squadron with a different livery, which is very cool
• Create the route for the lead.  From what I could see, typical cruise speed was around 220-230knots, ground speed.  I set mine up at angels 24
• I used fly over waypoint for the starting waypoint.  Wouldn't trust DCS to take off and get to that altitude
• The waypoint that you add the "carpet bombing" option to, ensure that it's a good distance before the target, too close and they don't have time to get ready.  I think I set mine at 10 miles, which may be too much, but seemed to work
• Copied the front flight.  Pasted as the left group and renamed it accordingly.  My naming convention was lead, lead left, lead right, lead back for the front 4 flights in the lead squadron
• Added the waypoint action for big formation.  Chose an option of Open formation.  Linked the new "left" flight to the lead
• Copied the front flight.  Pasted as the right group and renamed it accordingly
• Added the waypoint action for big formation.  Chose an option of Open formation.  Linked the new "right" flight to the lead
• Copied the front flight.  Pasted as the back group and renamed it accordingly
• Added the waypoint action for big formation.  Chose an option of Open formation.  Linked the new "back" flight to the lead
• Revisited the spacing.  Within the formation options, there is a spacing in feet.  The options are:
  • Distance (i.e. distance behind the flight linked to)
  • Height 
  • Delay (?? Sorry, can't remember the exact name, but it's something like that).  This refers to the lateral relationship to the flight that is linked to.  When zero, it means you're directly behind the linked flight.  A negative value is to the left, a positive to the right
  • When I used the default spacing, I had issues.  So updated them to:
    • Left flight -200', -200', -400'.  That meaning that the left flight would follow the lead, but with it's lead aircraft 200 feet behind, 200 feet below and 400 feet to the left
    • Right flight -200', +200', +400'
    • Back flight, -400, -400, 0
  • Using the above spacing seemed to result in the aircraft having sufficient room whilst sorting themselves out once activated
• The next squadron was a copy of the first, then renamed.  My naming convention was left lead, left left, left right, left back for the front 4 flights in the left squadron
• I did use a different set of liveries for the squadron, which is a bit tedious to do, but looks cool
• Linked the Left Lead to the lead (first flight created in the lead squadron).  Retained the space for flights within the new left squadron, and stacked it lower, behind and to the left.  So spacing for the left lead was something like -400, -600, -1000
• Repeat the above to add the right squadron and rear squadron

I didn't want the formation to always start at the beginning of my scenario, hence why I set all flights to late activation.  To sort that out:

• Created a new F10 radio option, to allow the choice of formation activation
• Activated all of the flights with the F10
• Created a new trigger zone where I wanted the formation to exit towards, which was well away from where I'd probably fly
• Have the final waypoint for the bomber formation to be within the trigger zone
• Have a trigger to de-activate ALL of the bomber formation flights when any coalition aircraft is within that zone

That final trigger zone nicely cleans up post mission.

That gave me 48 aircraft in a box formation, that once it had been given 5 mins to sort itself out, looked pretty good, happily flew 300 miles over 5 waypoints, bombed a target and then went home again and when at the end of it's flight all disappeared.

If I wanted to expand on 48 aircraft, I'd just copy the whole group and place it behind the lead group.  I seem to remember that's how the USAF operated in practice, i.e. lead group, space, next group, space, next group etc.  Can't remember the distance between, but it'll be online somewhere.

 

If you're really stuck, happy to just give you my mission.

[352ndDeacon]

Please post the mission Mr_sukebe. Thank you for your efforts in solving this problem. 

Edited May 12 by 352ndDeacon

[Mr_sukebe]

Here we go, attached.

To use the bombers, jump into the only air-started P51.  You'll get a message very shortly afterwards that you can enable the bombers.  Open the F10 menu, F1 and there you go.

Apologies for the naming standards for the pilots of each aircraft, I was just too lazy to update them.

 

 

Germany - 1985 - v.4.miz

[Philip Mongeon]

On 5/12/2025 at 4:04 AM, Mr_sukebe said:

Now you're asking.  As mentioned, it took some trial and error to get it to work.  IIRC:

• Before getting stuck in, I'd looked up typical bomber formation, as used by the 8th
• Each flight had 3 aircraft (not the 4 that DCS can seemingly support)
• Built the front (lead) flight or 3, gave them the flight formation for bomber.  Set them for "late activation", which I'll come back to later
• Picked a suitable generic livery and full bomb load.  DCS has a number of "generic" B17 liveries, meaning that it's now easy to set say the front 12 aircraft (4 flights) as a specific squadron, then the next squadron with a different livery, which is very cool
• Create the route for the lead.  From what I could see, typical cruise speed was around 220-230knots, ground speed.  I set mine up at angels 24
• I used fly over waypoint for the starting waypoint.  Wouldn't trust DCS to take off and get to that altitude
• The waypoint that you add the "carpet bombing" option to, ensure that it's a good distance before the target, too close and they don't have time to get ready.  I think I set mine at 10 miles, which may be too much, but seemed to work
• Copied the front flight.  Pasted as the left group and renamed it accordingly.  My naming convention was lead, lead left, lead right, lead back for the front 4 flights in the lead squadron
• Added the waypoint action for big formation.  Chose an option of Open formation.  Linked the new "left" flight to the lead
• Copied the front flight.  Pasted as the right group and renamed it accordingly
• Added the waypoint action for big formation.  Chose an option of Open formation.  Linked the new "right" flight to the lead
• Copied the front flight.  Pasted as the back group and renamed it accordingly
• Added the waypoint action for big formation.  Chose an option of Open formation.  Linked the new "back" flight to the lead
• Revisited the spacing.  Within the formation options, there is a spacing in feet.  The options are:
  • Distance (i.e. distance behind the flight linked to)
  • Height 
  • Delay (?? Sorry, can't remember the exact name, but it's something like that).  This refers to the lateral relationship to the flight that is linked to.  When zero, it means you're directly behind the linked flight.  A negative value is to the left, a positive to the right
  • When I used the default spacing, I had issues.  So updated them to:
    • Left flight -200', -200', -400'.  That meaning that the left flight would follow the lead, but with it's lead aircraft 200 feet behind, 200 feet below and 400 feet to the left
    • Right flight -200', +200', +400'
    • Back flight, -400, -400, 0
  • Using the above spacing seemed to result in the aircraft having sufficient room whilst sorting themselves out once activated
• The next squadron was a copy of the first, then renamed.  My naming convention was left lead, left left, left right, left back for the front 4 flights in the left squadron
• I did use a different set of liveries for the squadron, which is a bit tedious to do, but looks cool
• Linked the Left Lead to the lead (first flight created in the lead squadron).  Retained the space for flights within the new left squadron, and stacked it lower, behind and to the left.  So spacing for the left lead was something like -400, -600, -1000
• Repeat the above to add the right squadron and rear squadron

I didn't want the formation to always start at the beginning of my scenario, hence why I set all flights to late activation.  To sort that out:

• Created a new F10 radio option, to allow the choice of formation activation
• Activated all of the flights with the F10
• Created a new trigger zone where I wanted the formation to exit towards, which was well away from where I'd probably fly
• Have the final waypoint for the bomber formation to be within the trigger zone
• Have a trigger to de-activate ALL of the bomber formation flights when any coalition aircraft is within that zone

That final trigger zone nicely cleans up post mission.

That gave me 48 aircraft in a box formation, that once it had been given 5 mins to sort itself out, looked pretty good, happily flew 300 miles over 5 waypoints, bombed a target and then went home again and when at the end of it's flight all disappeared.

If I wanted to expand on 48 aircraft, I'd just copy the whole group and place it behind the lead group.  I seem to remember that's how the USAF operated in practice, i.e. lead group, space, next group, space, next group etc.  Can't remember the distance between, but it'll be online somewhere.

 

If you're really stuck, happy to just give you my mission.

Thank you for taking the time to write it all up. Super appreciative. The missions i created all start flawlessly using the following:

- WW2 bomber element height separation

- 4 planes per flight

- Big formation setting : Combat box for open formation

- all flights are configured in Lead-Right-Left-Back and in the right position in relation to the lead flight.

- carpet bombing is chosen. the carpet bombing waypoint is set at least 10 miles out and the next waypoint is set at least 5 miles after the target.

 

The issue i'm facing is that in a straight line, they start off perfectly in formation, then, out of the blue, one flight will start trailing, sometimes it will also start slipping inwards towards the rest of the flights, either causing mid air collisions, or causing the other flights to start moving away. From there, things will deteriorate. 

I also tried reducing the flight to 3 units. It seems to reduce the risk of mid airs, naturally, since there are less planes, but other than that, formation slippage and trailing still occurs, erratic flying still occurs and it seems that after bomb drop, the flights will tend to forget their original place in the big formation configuration and start moving around willy nilly, often causing more mid airs as they try to occupy a position in the big formation that is occupied by another flight, adding to the mystery of where they are actually getting the information to switch spots. 

i do not have formation side switching enabled, i have reaction to threat set to no reaction. originally i thought it might have to do with losing the entire lead flight to AAA, but even with no enemy fire, the behavior remains the same throughout countless missions i've created. 

I even downloaded a mission that was meant as a formation guideline. There are 16 flights of 2 B17s per flight, flying in a straight line through 6 waypoints. The flights eventually trail and lose positioning. Upon the first waypoint that demands a change in heading, big formation becomes big chaos. So it's not something specifically to what i am doing. Nor is it computer specific as i sent a mission file to a buddy and he experiences the same behavior. He also experiences it on his created missions. 

 

I understand that ED aims for total immersion and realism, but i feel like mission creation could be somewhat simplified. While it may appeal to some, the overall complexity and granularity, i think it steers away a considerable consumer base that love flight simulators but couldn't be bothered with the complexity of DCS.