Arecibo Posted April 23 Posted April 23 Hi all. What are these wires about, criss-crossing the air combat manoeuvre panel here: null Finally bugged me enough to ask 3 In Training: Phantom F-4E / In the Hanger: F-14, F-16 Maps: Afghanistan / Syria / Nevada Hardware: Winwing Orion2 HOTAS Metal Warthog / Winwing Orion2 ViperAce EX Throttle / Thrustmaster T-Flight Rudders Head Tracking: AI Track + OpenTrack
Zabuzard Posted April 23 Posted April 23 Its field modifications done to prevent the buttons from falling out during a catapult launch. 5 1
Arecibo Posted April 23 Author Posted April 23 (edited) Wow, went to the cheapest bidder on those buttons then! Edited April 23 by Arecibo 3 In Training: Phantom F-4E / In the Hanger: F-14, F-16 Maps: Afghanistan / Syria / Nevada Hardware: Winwing Orion2 HOTAS Metal Warthog / Winwing Orion2 ViperAce EX Throttle / Thrustmaster T-Flight Rudders Head Tracking: AI Track + OpenTrack
Jayhawk1971 Posted April 23 Posted April 23 One major drawback of those being randomized is that, for example, in the RAG part of the "Speed and Angels" campaign, those modifications often change with each loading of a different lesson (or replaying the same lesson), which is somewhat defeating its purpose of adding immersion. 1
Ivandrov Posted April 23 Posted April 23 1 hour ago, Arecibo said: Wow, went to the cheapest bidder on those then! That's not the cheapest bidder. There's been cheaper solutions to the buttons wearing out than that. Including scotch tape, and shoving paper into the gaps. Some squadrons did their due diligence and actually properly fixed them. Others decided that the plate or wire were good enough. 1
Arecibo Posted April 23 Author Posted April 23 (edited) 22 hours ago, Ivandrov said: That's not the cheapest bidder. There's been cheaper solutions to the buttons wearing out than that. Including scotch tape, and shoving paper into the gaps. Some squadrons did their due diligence and actually properly fixed them. Others decided that the plate or wire were good enough. It was a comment on the original manufacturer of the buttons. Edited April 24 by Arecibo 1 In Training: Phantom F-4E / In the Hanger: F-14, F-16 Maps: Afghanistan / Syria / Nevada Hardware: Winwing Orion2 HOTAS Metal Warthog / Winwing Orion2 ViperAce EX Throttle / Thrustmaster T-Flight Rudders Head Tracking: AI Track + OpenTrack
Ivandrov Posted April 23 Posted April 23 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Arecibo said: It was a comment on the original design of the buttons. Could be they're actually quite nice buttons that are abused to death over years. I don't actually know what material they are made of or how they're supposed to be retained in the panel. Edited April 23 by Ivandrov 1
captain_dalan Posted April 23 Posted April 23 4 hours ago, Arecibo said: It was a comment on the original design of the buttons. Such is the case with most government spending! 2 Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache
Wingmate Posted April 23 Posted April 23 5 hours ago, Ivandrov said: Could be they're actually quite nice buttons that are abused to death over years. I don't actually know what material they are made of or how they're supposed to be retained in the panel. If I am recalling correctly from previous discussions on this topic they are friction fit and pulled out similar to keycaps and lose their retention from being pulled out and put back in over time. Bonus image of VF-33 jet with the wire during Desert Storm 3
WarthogOsl Posted April 23 Posted April 23 6 hours ago, Ivandrov said: That's not the cheapest bidder. There's been cheaper solutions to the buttons wearing out than that. Including scotch tape, and shoving paper into the gaps. Some squadrons did their due diligence and actually properly fixed them. Others decided that the plate or wire were good enough. How did they fix them?
Ivandrov Posted April 24 Posted April 24 (edited) 8 hours ago, WarthogOsl said: How did they fix them? Replacing the buttons presumably, if they're friction retained as the other post suggested. Edited April 24 by Ivandrov 1
Arecibo Posted April 24 Author Posted April 24 15 hours ago, WarthogOsl said: How did they fix them? 2 In Training: Phantom F-4E / In the Hanger: F-14, F-16 Maps: Afghanistan / Syria / Nevada Hardware: Winwing Orion2 HOTAS Metal Warthog / Winwing Orion2 ViperAce EX Throttle / Thrustmaster T-Flight Rudders Head Tracking: AI Track + OpenTrack
WarthogOsl Posted April 24 Posted April 24 10 hours ago, Ivandrov said: Replacing the buttons presumably, if they're friction retained as the other post suggested. I assumed it was more of a design issue with those buttons. 1
Ivandrov Posted April 24 Posted April 24 2 hours ago, WarthogOsl said: I assumed it was more of a design issue with those buttons. It seems to me that it's always described as "wear" or "worn out" rather than any specific design issue. 1
Dragon1-1 Posted April 24 Posted April 24 If something in the cockpit wears out long before the rest of the panel, and there's no good way to fix it without outright replacement, then it's a design issue. 2
Ivandrov Posted April 24 Posted April 24 Just now, Dragon1-1 said: If something in the cockpit wears out long before the rest of the panel, and there's no good way to fix it without outright replacement, then it's a design issue. Ah, so we're good with the plate then. No replacement required. 1
WarthogOsl Posted April 25 Posted April 25 (edited) 23 hours ago, Ivandrov said: It seems to me that it's always described as "wear" or "worn out" rather than any specific design issue. I'd be surprised if those buttons got pressed enough to get worn out from use faster than any other buttons in the jet. It also seems like the issue only affected the 2-stage buttons. For example, the master caution light/button doesn't have anything retaining it when the metal plate-fix shows up on the ACM panel. Edited April 25 by WarthogOsl 1
=475FG= Dawger Posted April 25 Posted April 25 3 minutes ago, WarthogOsl said: I'd be surprised if those buttons got pressed enough to get worn out from use faster than any other buttons in the jet. Its not from operational use. Its from removal to replace bulbs. That looks like a high vibration installation. 1
Atomicmurph Posted May 1 Posted May 1 Those switches had quite a few parts to them all sandwiched together. The front bezel held it all in when you installed it in the panel. You were supposed to use a specific tool to grab under the bezel and extract the whole switch but lots of years of techs using the wrong tool (small screwdriver) and normal wear caused them to become loose. During the cat shot the buttons would pop out and in the worst cases come out entirely and fall onto the floor. You can a imagine a strapped in pilot has to do some major contortions to try and pick it up again (or sometimes they would invert the plane and try to get it off the canopy). Also, during OIF you really didn't want to down a whole plane for just a switch.... Safety wire or Kapton tape did the trick. 5
Abahji Posted May 6 Posted May 6 The scotch tape is a little ridiculous. One those wive's tales or something. "Slightly stupid" comes to mind.
AndyJWest Posted May 6 Posted May 6 49 minutes ago, Abahji said: The scotch tape is a little ridiculous. One those wive's tales or something. "Slightly stupid" comes to mind. I'd be surprised if Heatblur didn't have verifiable evidence that tape was sometimes used, at least as a temporary fix. Is it ideal? No. Is it better than the buttons falling out? Yes.
LanceCriminal86 Posted May 6 Posted May 6 The things presented either had photos provided, seen in cruise videos, or SMEs provided direct guidance of what was used. The photos of the wires have been posted plenty, I've seen the plate in either a photo or cruise video, and I vaguely recall seeing the tape in one or the other as well. 1 Heatblur Rivet Counting Squad™ VF-11 and VF-31 1988 [WIP] VF-201 & VF-202 [WIP]
Abahji Posted May 6 Posted May 6 (edited) I seriously doubt you or anyone has used scotch tape. The scrap aluminum plate and 0.020 safety wire is fine. But I challenge you to find an approved procedure using scotch tape for anything. If that tape thing was done at all, it was probably done by an aviator inflight getting field expedient using <profanity> he found in his flight bag. It would have promptly been ripped out with prejudice upon landing. "Held together with scotch tape and bubble gum" is a saying, an anecdote, amongst technicians. And a joke amongst others who have never bent a wrench. Not something actually done in the field, I don't care what airframe you're working on, let alone a $40 million Grumman. There is no procedure in any manual, TM, NATOPS, or FAA approved manual where this is acceptable. Scotch tape is for paper, it would be like using it to repair your breakfast burrito or omelet. No inspector would sign off on such a repair, and the 18 year old getting "creative" would be "schooled" post-haste, probably violently, in using approved for flight methods. Scotch tape implies a complete lack of understanding and standards in a profession built on those exact things. Some of the most technically proficient technicians in the world came from maintaining Grumman aircraft in precise fashion, in high flight hour, real world mission environments under extreme pressure. In all weather, in all climates, with the ground moving beneath their feet. Just as some of the finest aviators in the world have deep roots with the "Ironworks." Walk into any civilian flight operation anywhere in the USA, and tell them you were an Ironworks technician or stick monkey, and they would instantly want to know more, and consider hiring you on the spot. Grumman aircraft were demanding and challenging, and your absolute "A" game was required everyday, with every operation. The learning curve was steep. That "temp repair" with scotch tape is really a slap in the face. Well maybe not to the Air Force... <grin> May seem a grouchy rant, but I earned my wings in the Ironworks and have held my A&P for almost four decades now, and seeing that when I boot into the acft, well it's just a little ridiculous. Edited May 6 by Abahji 1
AndyJWest Posted May 6 Posted May 6 So, given the lack of any authorised fix for the 'buttons falling out' issue, the Tomcat is grounded? Given the willingness of the aviation industry to use tapes of various sorts for temporary external fixes, I'm not sure that lectures on the inappropriateness of scotch tape in this context is really justified. Anyway, either Heatblur based it on evidence, or they made it up, and I really can't think of any reason why they'd do the latter. 3
Zabuzard Posted May 6 Posted May 6 (edited) Believe it or dont. We dont make things up, have to take guesses or similar. All of this was modelled directly after first hand evidence. We didnt put all of what we found into the game as not everything had nice and detailed pictures to recreate it correctly. Heck, they even put folded paper between the buttons to keep them in. Edited May 6 by Zabuzard 6
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