Is it possible to perform reliable BVR when flying Solo with Jester?

[Schmidtfire]

Jester seems to have a LOT of issues with finding contacts on radar. But IF he's very lucky,  it's still very difficult for him to lock up and keep bandits locked.

This is at high altitudes (25000 feet, hot) and in clear sky. Perfect conditions.

Several times, I could see how Jester fiddled around with the radar but he still couldn't get a lock, even though I could visibly see their contrails and clearly see the contacts on the display in the front seat.        

Is it possible to perform reliable BVR when flying Solo with Jester? Like asking Jester to operate radar differently etc.

[Zabuzard]

Most of such reports are actually more down to people understanding the radar. What it is, how to use it effectively, what its limitations are.

As in, if you would fly with a human WSO, you would likely run into the same issues. Especially when it is about getting contacts on the screen, there is little that the WSO can contribute to that. This is mostly a pilots job of placing the aircraft correctly.

A few things to consider: Establish a look-up attitude, not look-down, ideally also not co-alt. Approach targets from the side, not front, to increase the RCS. Dont place targets around clutter, know the terrain. Dont place targets at a distance equal to your altitude. Dont expect unrealistic spotting distances - for a fighter you can expect to get them on screen between 10 and 20nm if you did it well. For large targets 25-40nm. This isnt really "BVR". If all stars align you get the chance to shoot maybe one Sparrow before you are already in Sidewinder/Guns range (in particular since the Sparrow needs a few seconds before it can be launched).

Practice practice practice.

If you cant get them on screen before you see them visually, switch to a visual mode instead. For example (regular) Boresight or (CAGE) Boresight, put the target on the nose and hit the Jester Context key so he can lock the target that way. This will be your main tool to lock targets that are in visual distance (~10nm or closer).

Edited July 8 by Zabuzard

[Zabuzard]

If you truly think Jester performed bad in one of your sorties - while a human WSO would have done better, it would be great to get hands on working (short, singleplayer) track files.

So we can best figure out what to change and tweak 

[Tango3B]

3 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

A few things to consider: Establish a look-up attitude, not look-down, ideally also not co-alt. Approach targets from the side, not front, to increase the RCS. Dont place targets around clutter, know the terrain.

This cannot be emphasized enough. Especially the part regarding RCS and a hot target. A lot of people cannot get their head around this very part when working with the APQ-120. Keep all of this in mind and the APQ-120 will show what it can do.

[Schmidtfire]

I have at least two sorties where Jester didn't spot the incoming AI contacts at all (Germany map, co-alt about 28000 feet). But it was multiplayer and there might have been something funky going on with the server.

4 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

A few things to consider: Establish a look-up attitude, not look-down, ideally also not co-alt. Approach targets from the side, not front, to increase the RCS. Dont place targets around clutter, know the terrain. Dont place targets at a distance equal to your altitude. Dont expect unrealistic spotting distances - for a fighter you can expect to get them on screen between 10 and 20nm if you did it well. For large targets 25-40nm. This isnt really "BVR". If all stars align you get the chance to shoot maybe one Sparrow before you are already in Sidewinder/Guns range (in particular since the Sparrow needs a few seconds before it can be launched).

I will try not be co-alt and see if it helps. Perhaps I should position myself significantly lower and ask Jester to elevate the radar? The most frustrating part for me is seeing the incoming contrails, hearing the AWACS call, seeing the RWR indications and Jester pretty much stays quiet into the merge  

I might also have overestimated the radar performance a bit. Seems like it sits between the Cyrano IV on the Mirage F1 and the AN/APQ-159 on the F-5E Tiger II. Boresight is probably a  better way to go under many day conditions.

[Zabuzard]

I guess my point is: If you would swap out Jester against a human WSO, would something different have happened?
From my experience, usually not.

To me this sounds like it was not Jester to blame. Instead, the crew needs to practice how to effectively position the aircraft in order for the radar to work as expected. And of course manage expectations.

If you got a track to look into, I can try to give more concrete help

[Schmidtfire]

I have a track but it's about 92mb, so a bit on the larger side     

If it happened at a lower altitude I could understand why this happened... but Co-Alt in the high 20's, head-on, is not a valid position? Sounds strange.

But as I stated it might also be a Server (4YA) or a Jester+Server issue. I did notice some rubber-banding going on.

Coming to think of it, I have also flown with all the WIP Special Options for performance. If that can introduce some issues?

 

51 minutes ago, Zabuzard said:

I guess my point is: If you would swap out Jester against a human WSO, would something different have happened?
From my experience, usually not.

Interesting question. I'd expect Jester to perform better than 99% of DCS players. He's supposed to be a trained WSO. But yes, under those conditions I would expect better performance from a human player.

Anyways, thanks for the tips and answer. If it continue to happen I will try to post a shorter track (unless you want to go through the 92mb behemoth of a track that also includes some nice Mirage F1 engagements).

[609_Relentov]

11 hours ago, Schmidtfire said:

Jester seems to have a LOT of issues with finding contacts on radar. But IF he's very lucky,  it's still very difficult for him to lock up and keep bandits locked.

This is at high altitudes (25000 feet, hot) and in clear sky. Perfect conditions.

Several times, I could see how Jester fiddled around with the radar but he still couldn't get a lock, even though I could visibly see their contrails and clearly see the contacts on the display in the front seat.        

Is it possible to perform reliable BVR when flying Solo with Jester? Like asking Jester to operate radar differently etc.

If you can see the target, or know the aspect vs your direction (e.g. you see the target’s radar emission on the RWR), one thing you can do is have Jester switch the scan type to narrow and maneuver to keep the target within ~10-20 degrees of your nose (Jester Command: Radar > Scan Type > 25/50mm Narrow). That has helped in my case to get Jester to find and lock a target sooner as the scan rate (ie. reduced azimuth) is faster.

If that doesn’t work, and you can see the target and still have enough separation  (e.g. 10-20 miles) you can ask Jester to switch to boresight mode (Jester Command: Radar > Boresight > Enter BST).  Then maneuver, placing the target within the reticle and ask Jester to lock the target (Jester Context Action - click & hold).

 

Edited July 8 by 609_Relentov

[Schmidtfire]

1 hour ago, 609_Relentov said:

If you can see the target, or know the aspect vs your direction (e.g. you see the target’s radar emission on the RWR), one thing you can do is have Jester switch the scan type to narrow and maneuver to keep the target within ~10-20 degrees of your nose (Jester Command: Radar > Scan Type > 25/50mm Narrow). That has helped in my case to get Jester to find and lock a target sooner as the scan rate (ie. reduced azimuth) is faster.

If that doesn’t work, and you can see the target and still have enough separation  (e.g. 10-20 miles) you can ask Jester to switch to boresight mode (Jester Command: Radar > Boresight > Enter BST).  Then maneuver, placing the target within the reticle and ask Jester to lock the target (Jester Context Action - click & hold).

Thanks! I'll give it a try  

[Phantom12]

I did a bit of testing when the F-4 came out and came to the conclusion that the biggest issue isn't really Jester's ability, so much that using him effectively requires brainpower from the front seater that in many cases is better spent elsewhere.

Jester can be effective IF you understand the Radar well enough to put the airplane in an optimum position (situation permitting), have developed your own little tactics to make use of these advantages, and understand/have practiced enough with the Jester commands to know when and how to ask him to do what you want. This mainly revolves around positioning for lookup & using the right radar elevation command to put the bandit in the search cone (this requires AWACS telling you bandit altitude, Mental math/guesstimation , and a somewhat cooperative bandit who doesn't change altitude regularly.... With contrails something like STAB OUT would be easier). Once you ask him to lock its also important to fly straight and level while he moves the cursor around and establishes the lock. If you don't do this he is much more likely to lock ground clutter (which would happen to a human too). I usually put him in Narrow Scan mode too for a faster update rate.

On the subject of Aspect: I can't help but feel that anything other than a head to head intercept is all that common in DCS. The AI is all knowing and will fly right at you no matter how sneaky you are, and in MP players have either magic RWR's or the All knowing EWR report function common on Cold War servers. The most likely scenario is that you will be flying head on with the MiGs. Against a MiG-21 the detection range is about 15 NM head on, which at 1200 Vc means about 45-60s between first detection and the merge.

Here's where the problems lie IMO:

1. Interacting with Jester is slower than doing things yourself in a single seat airplane. This is ofc because jester is rightfully simulated as a human being and not a Robot. This isn't really an "issue" on its own, but just a reality of the Phantom. When combined with #2 however it becomes a limiting factor in achieving forward quarter shots before the merge. A Human WSO with decent situational awareness is probably faster in these situations too.

2. Last time I flew (which was admittedly a few updates ago) Jester wasn't really capable of diagnosing and correcting a false/bad lock on his own. This means that you have to spend even more brainpower looking at the screen to validate the lock, and then alot of time asking him to unlock, and re-lock. This process generally takes long enough that you are still trying to lock a 2nd time as you blow past each other in the merge. Jester also likes to set the Gain really high and takes a bit longer to tune it down and filter out contacts than a good human would. This can also make filtering clutter and achieving a lock take longer.

All of this time you are spending sucked into the radar screen and mashing buttons on the jester wheel (or trying to pronounce things properly for Voice attack) instead of looking out the window. The result is usually hitting the merge with 0 situational awareness, which is a recipe for disaster. In my experience you are better off either ignoring sparrows altogether, or taking whatever lock you get, shooting and hope for the best, but continue to the merge with the attitude that it was a miss. Even with a perfect lock the Sparrows fuzing etc isn't so reliable that they are 100% reliable anyway.

The best compromise I came up with was to try for a BVR/Forward quarter shot initially, but at the latest once you hit 5NM ignore jester and the radar screen and look out the window instead. This gives you a chance of spotting missile trails, additional bandits, or to maneuver the airplane at the last minute so you can hit the merge with an advantage for the ensuing dogfight. Given Sparrows are 500lbs each its probably even worth shooting them without a lock just as a bluff to make the bandit evade etc. Being 500-1000lbs lighter will definitely help you in the WVR arena.

Alternatively you can try CAA mode or Boresight. CAA's 5 NM limit means you are generally very short on time to lock, wait 4s and shoot, and it also likes to lock ground clutter quite a bit. Boresight works decently well if you can see the target at longer ranges (although that's technically not BVR anymore).

At low altitudes or in look down situations (have you ever seen anyone in a cold war MP server fly higher than 500 ft?) BVR locks aren't 

Alot of this is mostly just the limits of the Phantom, not really caused by Jester. A really good Human WSO is probably better/faster, and would require less handholding, but the basic problems will remain the same.

Maybe when HB releases the F-4J with the fancy PD modes 

[Kalasnkova74]

On 7/8/2025 at 8:14 PM, Phantom12 said:

I did a bit of testing when the F-4 came out and came to the conclusion that the biggest issue isn't really Jester's ability, so much that using him effectively requires brainpower from the front seater that in many cases is better spent elsewhere.

 

I think the issue is simple. Players just aren’t used to the F-4Es pulse radar. 

They’re coming from modern fighters with intuitive control setups and look down/shoot down modes. God mode on the screen, as it were. 
Then they hop in the F-4E and go “WTF” when they can’t easily search targets, can’t effectively sort, or effectively employ the APQ-120/AIM-7 at AMRAAM range. The hope is Jester can somehow bridge this capability gap out of the box. 

That said, Combat Tree will change this to an extent in the next block coming out.

[primus_TR]

Another problem is that most co-era adversaries of the F4 in DCS (e.g. Mirage F1, Mig 21 etc) have 'imaginative' radar modeling and capabilities, and that puts the F4, which realistically simulates a pulse radar, at a great disadvantage and voids the benefit of its relative BVR superiority. Of course, I can't imagine a practical solution to this problem other than ED setting ground rules for at least FF modules somehow, but even that could be a practice in futility. So, best to stay away from multiplayer with the F4, at least until other modules come closer to reality in their systems modeling. 

[Kalasnkova74]

8 hours ago, primus_TR said:

. Of course, I can't imagine a practical solution to this problem other than ED setting ground rules for at least FF modules somehow, but even that could be a practice in futility. So, best to stay away from multiplayer with the F4…

Once the Combat Tree feature arrives in the DMAS block under development, the tables will turn quickly. That system pings the IFF of hostile aircraft to track them passively: if it’s implemented for everything in DCS (not just MiG-17s and 21s) , it’ll be a major advantage for the F-4E in the Cold War servers. I can see people desperately searching for “IFF keybinds” once that version drops.

[Phantom12]

As cool as combat tree is it won't give you any information that the magic EWR doesn't give you already. If MiGs are flying at 50ft in ground clutter you will still struggle to lock them, even if you know where they are. Combat tree also isn't unique to DMAS.

[Zabuzard]

8 hours ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

Once the Combat Tree feature arrives in the DMAS block under development, the tables will turn quickly.

(worth noting combat tree isnt a DMAS exclusive feature. it will be coming to the dscg as well.)

[primus_TR]

6 hours ago, Phantom12 said:

As cool as combat tree is it won't give you any information that the magic EWR doesn't give you already. If MiGs are flying at 50ft in ground clutter you will still struggle to lock them, even if you know where they are. Combat tree also isn't unique to DMAS.

EWR calls are most of the time outdated and inaccurate, so seeing their location on the radar display would make a big difference. 

Edited July 11 by primus_TR

[303_Kermit]

On 7/8/2025 at 12:08 PM, Schmidtfire said:

Jester seems to have a LOT of issues with finding contacts on radar. But IF he's very lucky,  it's still very difficult for him to lock up and keep bandits locked.

This is at high altitudes (25000 feet, hot) and in clear sky. Perfect conditions.

Several times, I could see how Jester fiddled around with the radar but he still couldn't get a lock, even though I could visibly see their contrails and clearly see the contacts on the display in the front seat.        

Is it possible to perform reliable BVR when flying Solo with Jester? Like asking Jester to operate radar differently etc.

Just for my curiosity... What missiles are you going to use for BVR? no AiM-7  fly that fast / that far to be a BVR capable. Jesters Locks are fine - just do it within 10nm-15nm range. Not further. It's not F-14. For low lvl Boresight works well, but of course it's not a BVR

Edited July 12 by 303_Kermit

[Zabuzard]

On 7/11/2025 at 1:01 PM, primus_TR said:

EWR calls are most of the time outdated and inaccurate, so seeing their location on the radar display would make a big difference. 

Hey there. We have just completed Combat-Tree, it will be available with the next build of the Phantom. Cheers  

https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/systems/identification_systems.html#interrogator-systems

[primus_TR]

Great to hear! Looking forward to trying it. 

[Omega417]

On 7/10/2025 at 5:51 AM, Kalasnkova74 said:

I think the issue is simple. Players just aren’t used to the F-4Es pulse radar. 

They’re coming from modern fighters with intuitive control setups and look down/shoot down modes. God mode on the screen, as it were. 
Then they hop in the F-4E and go “WTF” when they can’t easily search targets, can’t effectively sort, or effectively employ the APQ-120/AIM-7 at AMRAAM range. The hope is Jester can somehow bridge this capability gap out of the box. 

That said, Combat Tree will change this to an extent in the next block coming out.

I would build on this to say. A large frustration comes from getting the AWACS Picture/Bogie Dope and know enemy Airspeed, Heading, Altitude and now needing to tell jester to narrow his search without him doing it on his own. secondly not grasping that head-on a MIG-21 is a small RCS and wont be picked up easily out past 20ish nm, meanwhile a Bear is super easy to pickup.