check procedures AI CPG not lasing targets when in range

[JaroGrozni]

I noticed that when using RF Hellfires, George won't automatically lase the target when it gets in range. He lases it when the target is first detected and then just hangs until i give him the command to scan again or until i cycle the weapons to get him to lase again.

He should lase it in intervals to see how far the target is in my opinion...

The problem persists even if he has free fire selected and the target list populated. He just waits..

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

please include a short as possible track replay example 

thank you 

[Floyd1212]

It's tricky with Limas if you are flying around and hunting a SAM or something.  You want periodic spurts for ranging data, but you may not want to lock in the Target Data until right before you are going to take the shot.  Not sure how you manage something like that through George.

[JaroGrozni]

4 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

It's tricky with Limas if you are flying around and hunting a SAM or something.  You want periodic spurts for ranging data, but you may not want to lock in the Target Data until right before you are going to take the shot.  Not sure how you manage something like that through George.

I get it that it's probably working as intended but it would be nice to have an option to get a range...or an automatic option for him to check the range if he is on free fire maybe?

 

I will try to get a track as soon as possible.

[MarcT-NL]

Same problem here

[Derbroomaster]

On 7/30/2025 at 1:55 PM, JaroGrozni said:

I get it that it's probably working as intended but it would be nice to have an option to get a range...or an automatic option for him to check the range if he is on free fire maybe?

 

I will try to get a track as soon as possible.

One workaround I use (which I shouldn't have to) is to either...

a) Carry a mix of Kilos and Limas, putting George in SAL mode so that he constantly lases when given a target, which gives the range constantly, or...

b) Don't WAS the Hellfires until you want George to look at a target, then WAS the Hellfires when you're getting ready to engage.

This is a chronic problem that's been identified for well over a year and I've encountered escalating standards of evidence along the way, with no resolution in sight.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

The second option (b) is precisely what you are supposed to do. From AH-64D SMEs:

The CPG cannot designate a target with the laser while RF missiles are actioned without performing a target handover to the missile. And once a target handover is performed (TARGET DATA? is removed from the symbology), you cannot lase the target again to update the target data. The missiles need to be de-actioned to erase the target handover, which is mentioned several times in the DCS AH-64D manual. In general, you shouldn't be flying around with a weapon actioned anyway unless you are about to engage a target, and you can easily have George search, track, and/or lase targets without having him action a weapon at all, since that is what the NO WPN option is for in the first place.

[Floyd1212]

13 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

And once a target handover is performed (TARGET DATA? is removed from the symbology), you cannot lase the target again to update the target data.

We aren't looking for him to hand-off new updated data to the missile, we want him to blip the laser (first detent?) to update the current ranging info to the target only.  That way he knows when he has crossed over the magic 8km threshold and will then obey your suggestion to engage.  As it stands right now, he is oblivious to the fact that you have moved in on the target, and are taking fire at close range, but all he remembers is that the last time he lased the target 2 minutes ago it was still over 8km.

[Derbroomaster]

44 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

We aren't looking for him to hand-off new updated data to the missile, we want him to blip the laser (first detent?) to update the current ranging info to the target only.  That way he knows when he has crossed over the magic 8km threshold and will then obey your suggestion to engage.  As it stands right now, he is oblivious to the fact that you have moved in on the target, and are taking fire at close range, but all he remembers is that the last time he lased the target 2 minutes ago it was still over 8km.

Precisely. And this is what the OP described pretty well, which is not a new problem, sadly.

[BIGNEWY]

From an AH-64D SME:

There seems to be a misconception as to the correct procedures for employing the AGM-114L RF missiles, and some players are approaching the problem with the wrong solutions. When engaging targets with an RF missile, you decide when to fire the missile and then perform the target handover to the missile, not the other way around. It's described in the DCS manual, but the AGM-114L has an inertial guidance system to fly to its target when it is fired in LOAL mode. However, the missile is not a JDAM or similar munition that receives GPS augmentation. It is purely inertial, and as seen in other aircraft in DCS that use inertial guidance, this can lead to inaccuracy due to accumulation of errors over time. A target handover from the TADS to the RF missile should be happening coincidentally with the intent to immediately fire it, not to fire it at some later time. It should be target handover and trigger pull.

With that in mind, the idea that you don't even know if the target is in range of the missile before actioning an RF missile to engage that target is backwards. Because a TADS target handover and trigger pull should go hand in hand, if the intent is to engage a target with an RF missile, the correct procedure is to determine if engagement parameters have been met before committing to the engagement itself. Therefore, you should be using the NO WPN option with George CPG and manually commanding him to laser designate the target to determine if you are in range to fire (again, it's what NO WPN is there for). If you are in range, then tell him to action MSL with the type set to RF. 

George emulates a real crewmember and the procedures and cockpit workflow of real aircrews. Assigning a weapon system to the AI CPG is not just telling him to action a weapon, it is an implied task to prepare to engage that target with that weapon system, which is why he does everything required to ready that system for engagement and will then fire the weapon if in FREE FIRE. The fact he waits for you to consent to fire if in HOLD FIRE is just so you can ensure the aircraft is pointed in the right direction and the missile isn't going to hit terrain or your wingman.

And ultimately, the OP has yet to provide a track replay demonstrating that there is in fact a bug with the implementation. Commentary from other users that George is not implemented correctly is not relevant if the underlying procedures for employing the weapon correctly are being disregarded.

[Renko]

On 10/4/2025 at 10:10 PM, BIGNEWY said:

From an AH-64D SME:

There seems to be a misconception as to the correct procedures for employing the AGM-114L RF missiles, and some players are approaching the problem with the wrong solutions. When engaging targets with an RF missile, you decide when to fire the missile and then perform the target handover to the missile, not the other way around. It's described in the DCS manual, but the AGM-114L has an inertial guidance system to fly to its target when it is fired in LOAL mode. However, the missile is not a JDAM or similar munition that receives GPS augmentation. It is purely inertial, and as seen in other aircraft in DCS that use inertial guidance, this can lead to inaccuracy due to accumulation of errors over time. A target handover from the TADS to the RF missile should be happening coincidentally with the intent to immediately fire it, not to fire it at some later time. It should be target handover and trigger pull.

With that in mind, the idea that you don't even know if the target is in range of the missile before actioning an RF missile to engage that target is backwards. Because a TADS target handover and trigger pull should go hand in hand, if the intent is to engage a target with an RF missile, the correct procedure is to determine if engagement parameters have been met before committing to the engagement itself. Therefore, you should be using the NO WPN option with George CPG and manually commanding him to laser designate the target to determine if you are in range to fire (again, it's what NO WPN is there for). If you are in range, then tell him to action MSL with the type set to RF. 

George emulates a real crewmember and the procedures and cockpit workflow of real aircrews. Assigning a weapon system to the AI CPG is not just telling him to action a weapon, it is an implied task to prepare to engage that target with that weapon system, which is why he does everything required to ready that system for engagement and will then fire the weapon if in FREE FIRE. The fact he waits for you to consent to fire if in HOLD FIRE is just so you can ensure the aircraft is pointed in the right direction and the missile isn't going to hit terrain or your wingman.

And ultimately, the OP has yet to provide a track replay demonstrating that there is in fact a bug with the implementation. Commentary from other users that George is not implemented correctly is not relevant if the underlying procedures for employing the weapon correctly are being disregarded.

First of all thanks to that SME for that detailed answer. Included some SOP.

If i may, i think there are some good points made. Let me try to explain why.

I get that with the explanation about how the Lima works, makes so much sense for the user to operate that way.
Stay in NO WPN, and only when you are about to shoot change George to MSL RF. 

But there are some considerations to this:

- 1) If you change to CPG seat, you can still have the Lima selected and use RHG LRFD Trigger First Detent to have a range. Without having the Lima inertial guidance activated for that potential target.
So if you get in the CPG seat and can do that, it makes sense to include that in George menu.
There are some space even for that. When you are in NO WPN on the right you can ask already George to Lase. And in MSL RF on the right there is nothing, so you could include there the same comand but for a 1st trigger detent only.

null

- 2) George will lase with 2nd trigger the TGT or Point of interest as soon as you tell him to select the MSL RF. Commiting that missile instantly.
That as you can see can create some issues if the pilot is not aware of that AI instantanious action. Since the Missile guidance system is already commited to that place.
For example if you tell George to select an object on one side, and after its tracking you change to another object because you need to or because you selected the wrong one. You will get a message from him saying "Negative, out of range" when the issue is that the missile is already tracking other TGT.
With Consent to Fire you cannot launch until you deselect & select the MSL. Which is a great thing.
Because if you launch anyway the missile will go to the tgt that was tracking in the first place.
Maybe it will be nice to add some audio line for that case so the user is aware of that scenario.


I attach a track from a quick test where its showcased all this in this order, starting around 70s mark:
- How George will stop you from a mistake with the Limas (which is good, but the audio is misleading. Plus the symbology of the WPN page).
- Then from the CPG seat how with Trigger First Detent you can range without commit a Lima.
- How as CPG you can make the mistake and send the Lima to the TGT you tracked before.
- The rest you can skip because is just another test of the symbology bug of the Limas.

The bug is with the symbology of the Limas. If you look to the WPN page you will see the Limas state never transition to the T (tracking) status in all the duration of the track.
This will mislead the user because they won't know if a Lima is tracking.

null

Apache_LIMA_and_George.trk

Edited 2 hours ago by Renko

[BIGNEWY]

Hi Renko, 

I get what you are trying to show, but trying to change George's behaviour to suit a preferred method of using the systems instead of the proper way to use it is going to create issues.

You are also adding addition points that maybe would be better in there own topic.

The missile icon will only display as Tracking if the missile is actually tracking in LOBL mode. It won't say Tracking just because it was given a target handover but is in LOAL mode or not tracking a target.

thank you 

 

[Renko]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi Renko, 

I get what you are trying to show, but trying to change George's behaviour to suit a preferred method of using the systems instead of the proper way to use it is going to create issues.

You are also adding addition points that maybe would be better in there own topic.

The missile icon will only display as Tracking if the missile is actually tracking in LOBL mode. It won't say Tracking just because it was given a target handover but is in LOAL mode or not tracking a target.

thank you 

 

Yes, you are right about the LOBL. My mistake, sorry

[BIGNEWY]

No worries