MiG-29A SPO-15 does not detect any radar signal at left/right hemisphere

[Kuky]

I have noticed that I am not getting any nails on RWR in the MiG-29A when I am trying to notch, so I made a quick action mission to confirm this, and it did... I setup head to head against F-16C north to south direction... I fly towards it with radar being off (by staying in NAV mode which should keep the radar not transmitting) and only at around 70Km distance from the F-16C I get first radar nails on my RWR... so then I turn to the (my) right (which is west in this mission) and I get no RWR nails at all while I keep this aspect... after a little while I can see the contrails of the F-16C flying straight past me (on my left) which tells me I am in the notch and F-16C radar does not pick me up... so I fly like this further until what I thought was me flying almost parallel to the F-16C, so I check the F10 map, and I am not quite parallel, but wide off his nose that if I am to turn into him, his radar would not detect me as I am past 60deg of the F-16C nose, which I check in F10 view again, and yes, aspect shows me being past 60deg (more like 70deg off his nose)... so I turn into the F-16C keeping my radar off and going into optical scan mode, going full afterburner to catch up with F-16C... and again (which I noticed before with this AI) is that somehow the F-16C can still "see" me (mind you he is way up high and I am down bellow so there is no way he would have seen me either by radar (as I am outside the radar scan zone limits) or visually (but AI of course cheats in this aspect, which I knew already)... but he does see me... and of course turns into me, his radar finds me in no time and fires an AIM-120B at me, which of course hits.

Please see attached track showing all of this... so there are 2 bugs in this that I can tell straight away.... 1 being MiG-29A Fulcrum RWR which should, but does not, see any radar signal on the left/right aspect, the 90 degree zone lights never light up and no RWR sound can be heard... but they should... and second is this AI radar being able to "see me" (or other a/c) when I am outside the radar scan zone limit, as well as, what I consider realistic, condition where I am way bellow him and to his left/right-rear position where I think I should not be spotted, but AI

MiG-29A Fulcrum SPO-15 No radar detection Bug & AI Radar Scaning Area Bug.trk

Edited 18 hours ago by Kuky
typos

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

58 minutes ago, Kuky said:

by staying in NAV mode which should keep the radar not transmitting

Should it? Or does that switch simply tell the onboard computer which sensor the pilot wants to use and have displayed on the HUD?

Which position was the radar switch in: Off/Dummy/Illum?

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, Kuky said:

I have noticed that I am not getting any nails on RWR in the MiG-29A when I am trying to notch, so I made a quick action mission to confirm this, and it did... I setup head to head against F-16C north to south direction... I fly towards it with radar being off (by staying in NAV mode which should keep the radar not transmitting) and only at around 70Km distance from the F-16C I get first radar nails on my RWR... so then I turn to the (my) right (which is west in this mission) and I get no RWR nails at all while I keep this aspect... after a little while I can see the contrails of the F-16C flying straight past me (on my left) which tells me I am in the notch and F-16C radar does not pick me up... so I fly like this further until what I thought was me flying almost parallel to the F-16C, so I check the F10 map, and I am not quite parallel, but wide off his nose that if I am to turn into him, his radar would not detect me as I am past 60deg of the F-16C nose, which I check in F10 view again, and yes, aspect shows me being past 60deg (more like 70deg off his nose)... so I turn into the F-16C keeping my radar off and going into optical scan mode, going full afterburner to catch up with F-16C... and again (which I noticed before with this AI) is that somehow the F-16C can still "see" me (mind you he is way up high and I am down bellow so there is no way he would have seen me either by radar (as I am outside the radar scan zone limits) or visually (but AI of course cheats in this aspect, which I knew already)... but he does see me... and of course turns into me, his radar finds me in no time and fires an AIM-120B at me, which of course hits.

Please see attached track showing all of this... so there are 2 bugs in this that I can tell straight away.... 1 being MiG-29A Fulcrum RWR which should, but does not, see any radar signal on the left/right aspect, the 90 degree zone lights never light up and no RWR sound can be heard... but they should... and second is this AI radar being able to "see me" (or other a/c) when I am outside the radar scan zone limit, as well as, what I consider realistic, condition where I am way bellow him and to his left/right-rear position where I think I should not be spotted, but AI

MiG-29A Fulcrum SPO-15 No radar detection Bug & AI Radar Scaning Area Bug.trk 3.73 MB · 0 downloads

The 90 degree light is NOT a bug!

I attached a picture of SPO-15 antenna reception pattern here. Notice there is no single 90 degree antenna, but only one from 50-95 degrees and a small overlap with rear hemisphere antenna. 
 

So SPO-15 can only tell if someone is at 90 degrees if there is enough signal strength to both set off the 50-95 degree antenna and the rear antenna (which is not only weaker then the front antennas, but when hitting the antenna at its side is even weaker). 
 

So the result is, the 90 degree light will ONLY show up at very close range. And it will turn on together with the 50 light. 
 

Try your test again at increasingly shorter range, you’ll find the 90 degree light turning on at some point along with 50 degree light. 
 

F-16 also only has a medium power MPRF mode, airplanes with HPRF will be able to set off this 90 light at longer ranges. 
 

Let me know if you redo test, I am very interested to see at what range the 90 degree light turns on 

33 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Should it? Or does that switch simply tell the onboard computer which sensor the pilot wants to use and have displayed on the HUD?

Which position was the radar switch in: Off/Dummy/Illum?

There is a light on the warning light panel to tell you if radar is transmitting also 

[Kuky]

40 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Should it? Or does that switch simply tell the onboard computer which sensor the pilot wants to use and have displayed on the HUD?

Which position was the radar switch in: Off/Dummy/Illum?

Radar was in Illum position, but it was not transmitting because otherwise RWR would not have detected any radar signal from the F-16C, but it did, meaning radar was off (because I was still in NAV mode) so this is not relevant to why RWR does not detect any nails when in the beam.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

23 minutes ago, AeriaGloria said:

There is a light on the warning light panel to tell you if radar is transmitting also

Yes, good point. Thanks.

[Kuky]

34 minutes ago, AeriaGloria said:

The 90 degree light is NOT a bug!

I attached a picture of SPO-15 antenna reception pattern here. Notice there is no single 90 degree antenna, but only one from 50-95 degrees and a small overlap with rear hemisphere antenna. 
 

So SPO-15 can only tell if someone is at 90 degrees if there is enough signal strength to both set off the 50-95 degree antenna and the rear antenna (which is not only weaker then the front antennas, but when hitting the antenna at its side is even weaker). 
 

So the result is, the 90 degree light will ONLY show up at very close range. And it will turn on together with the 50 light. 
 

Try your test again at increasingly shorter range, you’ll find the 90 degree light turning on at some point along with 50 degree light. 
 

F-16 also only has a medium power MPRF mode, airplanes with HPRF will be able to set off this 90 light at longer ranges. 
 

Let me know if you redo test, I am very interested to see at what range the 90 degree light turns on 

There is a light on the warning light panel to tell you if radar is transmitting also 

Alright, I can take that signal detection could be lower at side aspects but this just looks wrong... I did another test specific to see at what range the 90 deg light comes on, and it seems it comes on at only ~5.5Km and it comes on in conjunction with 50 deg light, not by itself. At the same time I notice the strength indicator lights stay at only 1st light until ~10Km when the 2nd light comes on also, which seems wrong also (too weak IMHO), I find it funny that how at the same time western radars in DCS are so good at detection at very long distances, their radars receive their signal back (which is much weaker than signal that comes out) but the MIG-29A system can't even detect this same signal at greater strength then what transmitting radar can receive as a bounce off signal... it just looks very off IMHO.

[AeriaGloria]

Yeah that seems like a very very low range

[Muchocracker]

At true 90 degrees it's in the sidelobes of the 50-70 degree antennas even though it's in the mainlobe of the really low gain rear hemisphere antennas. Im not at all surprised the ranges are that low for detecting an MPRF waveform. 

[okopanja]

40 minutes ago, Muchocracker said:

At true 90 degrees it's in the sidelobes of the 50-70 degree antennas even though it's in the mainlobe of the really low gain rear hemisphere antennas. Im not at all surprised the ranges are that low for detecting an MPRF waveform. 

How many horizontal antenna inputs are presently implemented in SPO-15 of the module (not counting vertical direction antennas)?

Edited 13 hours ago by okopanja

[Muchocracker]

Have no reason to believe that the proper antenna gain patterns aren't modelled considering all of the statements made by ED through the whitepaper and other places like the interview answers in the flyandwire video. 

[AeriaGloria]

The gain of the antennas is easily known. We know the threshold of signal strength needed for detection. They then just need to know the radiation pattern of the 50-70 antenna to know what level of signal strength is needed to be detected by its sidelobe in conjunction with mainlobe of rear antenna 

[okopanja]

5 hours ago, Muchocracker said:

Have no reason to believe that the proper antenna gain patterns aren't modelled considering all of the statements made by ED through the whitepaper and other places like the interview answers in the flyandwire video. 

Understanding how many inputs are modeled is important when considering this issue.

Btw, which white paper? You mean Q&A or additional answer we got?

[Muchocracker]

Idk what you're talking about "inputs"

 

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