Who in the Lomac Community uses radar Automization?

[Grimes]

You can't make a triangle with 2 sides. It is a mathematical impossibility. Just like dividing by zero.

[RvEYoda]

The key components to a good TMA solution is heading and range, if the target is heading away or towards you, your estimations are going to be shot to pieces. Unfortunately with ECM ON neither of these values are avaliable to you.

 

If the taret is heading straight towards you or straight away from you your

estimation will be super accurate. If he is moving similar to you(no bearing change),

then you get problems.(but in that case you can filter out good headings vs bad very easily)

[GGTharos]

The mod has between 10nm and 20nm error at about 40nm. Real bearing-only TMA will likely nail the target down within 2nm at that range, if not better.

 

But hey, if you want classified figures, I don't have them - actual performance figures are as classified as the max range on that simulated radar you're using. I'm just aware of the method and I took the short time needed to work it out. The error can easily be larger at a longer range, but it probably won't be as attrocious as the estimation on this mod.

 

Edit: it just occurred to me, are you referring to the FC1 implementation bug where it gave you the EXACT range instead of jumping around? This is gone in the FC2 mod.

 

Why is the mod so accurate and instantaneous then, and the big question, how accurate is it in RL?

Figures?

[RvEYoda]

To triangulate with one radar takes time and time can make your estimation even greater because like it or not with out range, heading and speed your just taking a shot in the dark.

 

No it is not.

it gives a very good estimate unless you keep flying straight at the target.

 

A simple way would be to make a barrel rolling motion, and within a few seconds

you will know the target range with decent accuracy.

(Enough accuracy to determine if he is a threat or not)

Edited April 1, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda

[Frostie]

If the taret is heading straight towards you or straight away from you your

estimation will be super accurate. If he is moving similar to you(no bearing change),

then you get problems.(but in that case you can filter out good headings vs bad very easily)

 

If 2 targets start level travelling 500km/h faster than you but one is heading away and the other directly at you, your going to get the same range estimation for both yet their range difference to you is increasing every second. This is if your also heading towards them.

[Kuky]

You can't make a triangle with 2 sides. It is a mathematical impossibility. Just like dividing by zero.

 

3 sides... 2 positions from different radar and 1 source. When you know distance from 2 radar sources and heading from each to the jamming source you get it's position.

[RvEYoda]

You can't make a triangle with 2 sides. It is a mathematical impossibility. Just like dividing by zero.

 

Sure I can. With 2 sides I can pick the third freely.

also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_(mathematics)

 

Jokes aside, and knowing that the target is not mach 5 and knowing where I am going

is more than enough to give a rough estimate of target position.

[Frostie]

No it is not.

it gives a very good estimate unless you keep flying straight at the target.

 

A simple way would be to make a barrel rolling motion, and within a few seconds

you will know the target range with decent accuracy.

(Enough accuracy to determine if he is a threat or not)

This is the whole point, you need to move your own ship around to get an estimation in RL, where as your mod doesn't simulate any of this. You can fly directly to the jammer and be given a range, pure arcade.

[RvEYoda]

If 2 targets start level travelling 500km/h faster than you but one is heading away and the other directly at you, your going to get the same range estimation for both yet their range difference to you is increasing every second. This is if your also heading towards them.

 

Like i said range estimation from triangulation is impossible if you are flying parallell to

your target. In ALL other cases it works. The longer the range and more perpendicular

flight paths the better ;).

[RvEYoda]

This is the whole point, you need to move your own ship around to get an estimation in RL, where as your mod doesn't simulate any of this. You can fly directly to the jammer and be given a range, pure arcade.

 

So then it wont piss you off if I implement mathematical ECCM that is 5 nm accurate

from 150 nm out? I think you are just looking for things that allow you to say "Yoda's work

is baaaaad, it must burn, burn the Witch!, Burn her!"

[GGTharos]

Pure arcade is your uber-accurate RWR :)

 

The mod gives up accuracy as compensation for everything else.

 

This is the whole point, you need to move your own ship around to get an estimation in RL, where as your mod doesn't simulate any of this. You can fly directly to the jammer and be given a range, pure arcade.

[Frostie]

Jokes aside, and knowing that the target is not mach 5 and knowing where I am going

is more than enough to give a rough estimate of target position.

No, because the target on your nose could be anywhere between 30 to 100nm away you can't possibly know this.

[Frostie]

So then it wont piss you off if I implement mathematical ECCM that is 5 nm accurate

from 150 nm out? I think you are just looking for things that allow you to say "Yoda's work

is baaaaad, it must burn, burn the Witch!, Burn her!"

I've already commented on the ingenious slew which I think is fantastic work, well done. But you need to learn to take a hint on this one. Its not realistic.

[RvEYoda]

No, because the target on your nose could be anywhere between 30 to 100nm away you can't possibly know this.

 

Yes I can :P, except for when the target is flying parralel to me.

I'm going to draw an MSPAIN(T) picture to prove this

[A.S]

 

best mod EVER :D

[A.S]

Its not realistic.

 

you just deseverd a

 

 

for using Lockon and REALISTIC in one breeth :D

[RvEYoda]

 

And this is super overly simplified, nowhere near the real eccm methods used.

This is used in a million other applications than eccm.

Edited April 1, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda

[Frostie]

WTH Yoda, 9 times out of 10 bandits face each other and head directly at each other when over 30nm away. For a start how can you even get an estimation of a strobe you can't even see because your beaming him.

 

Im going to get my crayons out soon.

[Kuky]

One thing just occured to me.. if you can estimate that accurately aircraft position even if he is jamming and far away... then with this info (range) instantly you can calculate his elevation, then speed and heading... my point is.. then what is the point of using jammer to begin with???

 

Most definitely if you can estimate his range... it would take long time to do so as at great separattion the angle (aspect) is minimal... to get decent angle change takes time to travel the distance... and yeah... no point showing image of you beaming the target and getting radar info on him :P but we get the idea :)

 

So with scripting now you get this estimate instantly... no way it's gonna happen, especially if you are head on with jammer... so I am now definitely against this to be used

 

Oh I think I know what's the point of jammer... it does not give you single line on the HUD like in LockOn... I saw a video of 2s Su-27 in dogfight, and one was jamming... for about 10min he was turning etc... and all this time he had 10's of jamming strobe lines all over the HUD. It has to be that jammers send out fake signals cluttering yout radar so you cannot pin point it's source like that. Like I said above, if you can estimate jammer range like that it beats its purpose so that just can't be the case :)

Edited April 1, 2010 by Kuky

[A.S]

"my pc is horrible, my screen is 80ties, my settings are causing eye cancer, the gfx ..oh well...i cant see anything, but hey ...my SA rocks" :D

[RvEYoda]

WTH Yoda, 9 times out of 10 bandits face each other and head directly at each other when over 30nm away. For a start how can you even get an estimation of a strobe you can't even see because your beaming him.

 

You dont need to beam him.....

Just fly maybe a few degrees left or right.

[Frostie]

 

 

So thats what you get when you complete Falcon.

[RvEYoda]

One thing just occured to me.. if you can estimate that accurately aircraft position even if he is jamming and far away... then with this info (range) you can get his elevation, then speed and heading... my point is.. then what is the point of using jammer to begin with???

 

It's not accurate enough to fire at. It's not how real jammers work.

 

Hundreds of ECM types, and some even screw up the wavefront so the LOS direction you get

is going somewhere completely different. Real life jammers do a lot more than throw out noise.

From what I understand this noise/overwhelm jamming is more often used in larger aircraft, while

fighters are more likely to use some self defense jammers. In fact real ECM will often only "activate"

when someone locks you, or when the onboard system sees "hey this guy is a threat". Then they

also have a limitation on "maximum number of targets I can jam simultaneously"

 

Some rl jammers even simply make you not appear on radar :). Happened in RED flag when those

Indian mig-21s got fitted with Israeli jammers.

------

 

The picture above is not a full representation of eccm ranging, just a simple idea of what you can do

vs headon targets. You need a little more work to cover all cases, but the basic principles are similar.

 

Now I currently have to stop answering here for a while because I must go work on a workaround for

the lua export issue Case found affecting tacview

Edited April 1, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda

[Frostie]

You dont need to beam him.....

Just fly maybe a few degrees left or right.

A few degrees hmm, so what if he decides to not fly like a drone and fly like you? Screws up your sketch a little.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Frostie

[GGTharos]

Kuky: A range jammer can and will decrease missile Pk. Your aspect estimate is not so good so you cannot get a good lead. If he turns, you won't know for a little while. In other words, it does its job.

 

Really the way it SHOULD work, is when someone locks you STT it would drop the lock until burn-through (yes, just like blinking - on the other hand, it would plain NOT work against TWS track). If you can track it, the SPJ is probably not doing things as well as it should.

 

To put it simply, the jammer simulation in FC/FC2 is pretty simple, and we're not going to be able to get away from that.

Essentially you can get information like range on any angle-only track unless it's doing something extra to spoil your ECCM.

 

The F-18 jammer, for example (and IIRC), will jam angles and range if you lock onto the F-18 to break the lock, and then it will cease transmitting. You don't see this in FC.

 

The sorbitsya can use terrain bounce - also not modeled in FC.

 

Edit: You can easily range a jammer yourself with a mathematical rule of thumb and knowing his altitude ... after you know his alt, compare angle on HUD from your new altitude (yes, you must change it) to him, and you have a range that gets very accurate as you close in. Further, if you are tracking someone who you know is flying either high or low, you just assume and you get a good estimate that way. The closer he is, the more accurate you get.

 

One thing just occured to me.. if you can estimate that accurately aircraft position even if he is jamming and far away... then with this info (range) you can get his elevation, then speed and heading... my point is.. then what is the point of using jammer to begin with???

Edited April 1, 2010 by GGTharos