HOJ burn through ECM attention all

[S77th-Souless]

This is taken from the lock on 1.1 manual and I quote " The AIM-120c and the AIM 7 missles can both be launched in this mode when a radar lock is not possible to due enemy ECM... attacking in such a mode provides the enemy with no warning because A HOJ ATTACK IS A COMPLETLY PASSIVE ATTACK" ;)

However as it is now a F-15 cannot launch passivley on a jam siganal because the russian planes get a launch warning.However when a russian plane launches on a F-15 there is no idication of a missile launch.

This needs to be addressed.

An f-15 launching on another f-15's HOJ there is a missile launch warning it also needs to be addressed.

Well thats my 2 cents its a good game you guys gotta fix this one ;)

[169th_DedCat]

Are the Eagles firing AIM-7s or AIM-120s? What about the Russians, Adders or Alamos? I think the Sparrow is supposed to be the only NATO missile modeled with a true HOJ capability. I remember in Jane's FA18/F15 the Sparrow was the only missile that could HOJ. Maybe the AMRAAM pounds the jammer strobe with its radar once it comes off the rails in an attempt to achieve burn-through before it goes terminal.

[S77th-Souless]

Either missle dedcat page 88 and 89 of manual. The point of my post is its a passive attack and the other plane does not get a missile launch warning.

As for the missile I agree with you I always understood it was the AIM 7 however they are saying both.

[Pilotasso]

There are lots of things that are wrong in lock on since ever it was launched.

for example you should not recieve any type of warning if an enemy F-15 launches AMRAAM's at you in TWS radar mode.

 

Last night I sent 4 silmutanous AMRAAM attacks, and each of the targets turned away immidiatly.

Similarly I get missile launch warning every single time before the AMRAAM goes active.

This is WRONG but I guess then every target I fired upon would have little warining (only when it goes active) and would be dead in ablink of an eye. Its already too easy as it is. :D

[JaBoG32_Pjotr]

Its a silent attack for the F-15 until the AMRAMgoes active.

According to another pilot in my squad he did get a missile warning of my R-27ER. At least in the final phase of the flight.

 

I didn't do any tests on the F-15 yet, so i am not 100% sure. :)

[169th_DedCat]

Either missle dedcat page 88 and 89 of manual.

 

I know what the manual says, I was asking about in practice. I would imagine if an ARH missile like the AMRAAM or Adder was used the target would receive a missile warning, but if it is a true SARH HOJ capable missile like the Sparrow or Alamo, then no there shouldn't be any launch warning at all for either side.

 

As far as TWS goes, no there shouldn't be any radar missile warning until the AMRAAM reaches its TTA point and switches on its own radar. It seemed to work this way in 1.02, but I haven't had any experience with it in 1.1 yet.

[Pilotasso]

I havent 1.1 yet, and I dont believe that every single oponent I had swiched to STT to launch an amraam, yet I always got launch warning long before it became active.

 

I think either it was never corrected or ED chose to keep it this way for balance purposes, remnber it was only in the past years (since F4) that we got to get realistic lauch warning simulation. In the old days we would get even for IR missiles.

[S77th-Souless]

planes recieve a launch warning immediately from the sparrow and the slammer in HOJ if an alamo is used the other plane recieves no launch warning while ecm is on.

[169th_DedCat]

In the old days we would get even for IR missiles.

 

In the Russian jets ya... that was due to some crazy claim that the EOS sensor can detect the "characteristic IR signature of a missile launch", but it worked instantly at any distance, any angle, and any aspect. I'm quite glad it is gone.

[169th_DedCat]

planes recieve a launch warning immediately from the sparrow and the slammer in HOJ if an alamo is used the other plane recieves no launch warning while ecm is on.

 

That should be fixed, yes. :D

[S77th-Souless]

I certainly hope so ;)

[Pilotasso]

In the Russian jets ya... that was due to some crazy claim that the EOS sensor can detect the "characteristic IR signature of a missile launch", but it worked instantly at any distance, any angle, and any aspect. I'm quite glad it is gone.

 

Be aware that Im not only talking about Flanker games. But all of them from that age...

[Nate--IRL--]

I get no launch warning on a HOJ from an F-15, just finished in hyper lobby testing this.

 

I DO get a launch warning TONE when you go through burnthrough, after the missile has been launched in HOJ intially, as the missile reverts to the normal method of seeking.

 

One interesting thing i've found is that if you lock up friendly ECM in a su-27/33, after burnthrough your missile will still track that friendly aircraft, you must manually break lock (might be a bug, might not be i'm not sure)

 

Nate

[Pilotasso]

I belive in real life missiles cant tell frind from foe, only aircraft can but with limitations and it takes time. Thats why whne employing missiles the military are very carefull. There were tragic accidents in the past involving even civilian liners.

[Nate--IRL--]

I belive in real life missiles cant tell frind from foe, only aircraft can but with limitations and it takes time. Thats why whne employing missiles the military are very carefull. There were tragic accidents in the past involving even civilian liners.

 

Indeed so, but the r-27 is SARH (ie DUMB), it depends on the emitting aircraft for guidence after burnthrough (ie switches from HOJ to normal tracking), it is the emmiting aircraft that should break lock, if freindly, after burnthrough.

 

The missile is innocent i tells ya:)

 

Nate

 

........clear as mud i know, but it makes sense in my head :)

[S77th-Souless]

nate you better test that again

[Nate--IRL--]

It i was as i said, I got knocked out of the sky by 120's without a launch tone many times. However if i made it to burnthrough, the 120 was ussually on top of me and seeking normally, i then recieve a tone(and distance reading from the RWS,i.e. f'ing close.)

 

However, the test was hardly scientific, so i will test again :)

 

Nate

[GGTharos]

I know what the manual says, I was asking about in practice. I would imagine if an ARH missile like the AMRAAM or Adder was used the target would receive a missile warning, but if it is a true SARH HOJ capable missile like the Sparrow or Alamo, then no there shouldn't be any launch warning at all for either side.

 

As far as TWS goes, no there shouldn't be any radar missile warning until the AMRAAM reaches its TTA point and switches on its own radar. It seemed to work this way in 1.02, but I haven't had any experience with it in 1.1 yet.

 

 

The AIM-120 is a radar guided missile. It can do HoJ ... that's really /all/ there is to it. Wether you get a warning tone or not with a'true SARH missile' is highly debeatable, sice realistically the ECM would fire after you had locked on to the enemy aircraft in a lot of cases, - at that point it's anyone's guess wether the aircraft's radar will continue trying to bang away on the target while maintaining a HoJ LOS, and trying to defeat the jammer using different techniques or wether it'll just go to SNIFF - but then once the lock drops the SPJ is likely to shut off as well - so your missile goes dumb and you need to lock back onto the target and recapture it.

[coldcrew]

I bet ED is kicking themselves after doing this whole stupid HOJ thing. If you want a hit burn through and lock on. HOJ is for sissies

[britgliderpilot]

Be aware that Im not only talking about Flanker games. But all of them from that age...

 

Be aware that such systems do exist, and have done for a while.

 

In recent developments, they use the rocket motor heat bloom for initial detection, and can then track the missile and direct an IR jamming beam or laser at the seeker head. The words "Dude", and "Awesome" come to mind . . . .

 

 

F2.0 at least modelled a version of the Flanker where there was a possibility of such a system being included. Information on spec lists was a little sketchy for a while, too . . . . .

[S77th-Souless]

then why do the aim 120's and aim 7's locked onto a hoj give a warning of a missile launch?

it is suppose to be a passive attack and it is not.

i would really like to hear an answer to this.

An su 33 locked onto my jammer can fire a missile and i get no launch warning however in a f15 if i lock his jammer and fire he gets a missile launch warning?

Also why does tws give a missile launch warning now?

The simple fact is bugs have remained from the very first store bought cd purchase and have never been rectified now were in a situation instead of jumping ahead we have moved backward again.

Also why I'm on a rant ;) you might as well remove the aim 120 from the game now its useless give me a handful of stones pop my canopy and i would have better luck throwing them and hitting something

[coldcrew]

then why do the aim 120's and aim 7's locked onto a hoj give a warning of a missile launch?

it is suppose to be a passive attack and it is not.

i would really like to hear an answer to this.

An su 33 locked onto my jammer can fire a missile and i get no launch warning however in a f15 if i lock his jammer and fire he gets a missile launch warning?

Also why does tws give a missile launch warning now?

The simple fact is bugs have remained from the very first store bought cd purchase and have never been rectified now were in a situation instead of jumping ahead we have moved backward again.

Also why I'm on a rant ;) you might as well remove the aim 120 from the game now its useless give me a handful of stones pop my canopy and i would have better luck throwing them and hitting something

 

Because americans and russian use different systems for launch detection?

[S77th-Souless]

coldcrew the manual specifically states a aim 120 or aim 7 fired on a HOJ is a passive attack and not detectable. It states the same for the russian planes

[Pilotasso]

Be aware that such systems do exist, and have done for a while.

 

In recent developments, they use the rocket motor heat bloom for initial detection, and can then track the missile and direct an IR jamming beam or laser at the seeker head. The words "Dude", and "Awesome" come to mind . . . .

 

 

F2.0 at least modelled a version of the Flanker where there was a possibility of such a system being included. Information on spec lists was a little sketchy for a while, too . . . . .

 

I know that brit, your probably talking about one like the Typhoon has, but back then in the early 90's every simulation had IR missile warning, remenber Falcon 3? Strike commander? Tornado? and so many others. None of these planes had those fancy detectors neither were they widely known back then.

 

this whole IR warning thing was made for playability purposes.

[coldcrew]

coldcrew the manual specifically states a aim 120 or aim 7 fired on a HOJ is a passive attack and not detectable. It states the same for the russian planes

 

who knows, maybe they can use UV and IR detectors to spot the exhaust plume of incoming missiles and feed it into their systems. Considering they already have stuff like EOS it wouldn't surprise me.