Missile Evasion in F-15?

[Mugenjin]

I figure by losing altitude you gain speed (trading potential for kinetic energy) which is necessary to increase the distance the missile has to travel. By climbing you loose speed which is not quite gonna help you against a missile approaching you with 2-3 mach.

[cool_t]

Remember missiles can pull massive G's but.....when a missile is going Mach 2.ect ect...it can only navigate a specific realm in which, thrust-drag-intercept points are limited by thrust-drag-intercept points. Where a slower jet can produce more coverage of an average intercept point where the Missile wants to just hit the target and get there as fast as possible.......

Edited January 17, 2010 by cool_t

[cool_t]

Cool T is the Sith lord of Lockon :D

 

Naaa...Im more about the Force :)

[Spidey209]

I am not sure what you meant in your post about "thrust-drag-intercept points".

 

Missiles can pull massive G's, but it costs them energy to do so. The secret to missile evasion in LO is to minimise the amount of energy the missile has at the intercept point so that it cannot pull those massive G's and hit you.

 

The equation the missile has to solve is a bit more complicated than just determining where the target will be in a future point in time and trying to get there as fast as possible.

 

The missile also needs to arrive at the intercept point with sufficient energy to maneuver and hit the target.

 

I have little idea what the intercept logic for a LOMAC missile is but would like to hear from anyone who has studied it. I spent a few years selling Process Instrumentation and Numeric Controllers so control logic is an interesting subject for me.

 

A "really dumb" missile would just head straight to the target. ( HOJ shot ?? )

 

A "less dumb missile" would just calculate the targets motion vector and aim for a point ahead of the plane ( Lead pursuit? ) maybe switch to aiming directly at the target just before impact ( Pure Pursuit? ).

 

A "smarter" missile would leave the rail and ( assume a "long" intercept flight ) immediately start climbing. Why? Air resistance is a speed^2 function so the slower the missile flies the less energy it loses to friction. It can also get that Gravitational Energy back at the end of the flight when it comes downhill to hit the target. Lower air density will allow the missile to fly further and faster too.

 

The above is just some thoughts. From watching Ironhand's tutorials and replaying my own Tacview tracks it appears the Medium and Short range missiles just fly a "less dumb" profile, although the ER seems to initially climb when coming off the rail in a direct head-to-head.

 

I am interested from anyone with some LO data they would like to share.

 

Cheers,

 

Jason

(Spidey209)

 

Remember missiles can pull massive G's but.....when a missile is going Mach 2.ect ect...it can only navigate a specific realm in which, thrust-drag-intercept points are limited by thrust-drag-intercept points. Where a slower jet can produce more coverage of an average intercept point where the Missile wants to just hit the target and get there as fast as possible.......

[GGTharos]

The equation the missile has to solve is a bit more complicated than just determining where the target will be in a future point in time and trying to get there as fast as possible.

 

No, actually that is all it needs to solve, and all it does solve. It is a real-time set of control laws that do different things depending on inputs.

 

 

A "really dumb" missile would just head straight to the target. ( HOJ shot ?? )

 

A "less dumb missile" would just calculate the targets motion vector and aim for a point ahead of the plane ( Lead pursuit? ) maybe switch to aiming directly at the target just before impact ( Pure Pursuit? ).

 

A "smarter" missile would leave the rail and ( assume a "long" intercept flight ) immediately start climbing. Why? Air resistance is a speed^2 function so the slower the missile flies the less energy it loses to friction. It can also get that Gravitational Energy back at the end of the flight when it comes downhill to hit the target. Lower air density will allow the missile to fly further and faster too.

 

LOMAC missiles fly three profiles: Pure (HoJ, low Pk), Proportional Navigation - nominally high Pk and the type of terminal navigation all missiles do, and Lofted PN for long ranged shots supported by mid-course updates.

 

Real missiles can fly all those too, though they are quite a bit smarter about them in the most modern examples of missiles; PN is used throughout in the terminal stage in some cases combined with methods to defeat certain maneuvers (Kalman filters for given maneuvers typically) while long ranged shots are flown in a straight line (no PN, just point A to point B, since PN would cause the missile to maneuver during flight as its speed changes) with constrained g for turning until terminal - in addition they have intertial navigation to combine with the MCUs. Once they go terminal, it's PN again.

[cool_t]

No, actually that is all it needs to solve, and all it does solve. It is a real-time set of control laws that do different things depending on inputs.

 

 

 

 

LOMAC missiles fly three profiles: Pure (HoJ, low Pk), Proportional Navigation - nominally high Pk and the type of terminal navigation all missiles do, and Lofted PN for long ranged shots supported by mid-course updates.

 

Real missiles can fly all those too, though they are quite a bit smarter about them in the most modern examples of missiles; PN is used throughout in the terminal stage in some cases combined with methods to defeat certain maneuvers (Kalman filters for given maneuvers typically) while long ranged shots are flown in a straight line (no PN, just point A to point B, since PN would cause the missile to maneuver during flight as its speed changes) with constrained g for turning until terminal - in addition they have intertial navigation to combine with the MCUs. Once they go terminal, it's PN again.

 

Right....

[Case]

No, actually that is all it needs to solve, and all it does solve. It is a real-time set of control laws that do different things depending on inputs.

Which raises the question how IR missiles track. They (probably) have no range information, and most certainly have no tracking information. So if anything, they can only fly pure pursuit, right?

[GGTharos]

Proportional navigation. You don't need range information for PN, only LOS drift rates.

 

The principle is the same as you know you're on a collision course with a car that's speeding towards that same intersection when he's coming from the side: If he's drifting away/backwards from where you saw him, you'll cross the intersection ahead of him. If he's moving towards you center of vision/ahead, he'll cross in front of you.

 

If you are staring at him off the side slightly, but you do NOT have to turn your head at all, he's just in the same spot all the time, just growing bigger - congratulations, you are now on a collision course.

 

Now, assuming you WANT to collide with him and the above condition is not true, you can adjust your speed to make it so. If you are a missile, you adjust your flight path instead (thus placing the appropriate component of your velosity on a intercept course with his).

 

Which raises the question how IR missiles track. They (probably) have no range information' date=' and most certainly have no tracking information. So if anything, they can only fly pure pursuit, right?[/quote']

[Case]

Proportional navigation. You don't need range information for PN, only LOS drift rates.

You are right, I missed that.

 

I'm wondering though how LOS drift rates are determined, cause it needs some stable platform to which to reference them, but I guess they come with some sort of inertial unit.

[GGTharos]

I'm not sure if the inertial unit is strictly necessary for all missiles - basically you know he seeker position (this is what measures the LOS angle directly) with respect to the missile body. If the seeker moves, you have LOS drift. You obviously have to filter out self-induced vibration as well as other things, which part of why seeker settling time is something to exploit in evasion.

 

If you have an inertial unit you might be able to do a few more interesting things than just use PN. ANd your INU only need to be accurate for a few minutes.

[DarkWanderer]

I'm wondering though how LOS drift rates are determined, cause it needs some stable platform to which to reference them

3-gimbal gyros conserve their position regardless of applied torque and/or rotation. This is enough for getting a reference.

[Spidey209]

H'mmm, these things really are quite simply as long as you don't over think them.

 

The constant angle technique is used in yacht racing and in general boating to determine if you are going to have to yield to an opponent.

 

So a HOJ shot can use a pure pursuit profile as it has a direction to the ECM emitter and doesn't need range info?

 

I did some experiments last night F15 vs Mig29S to see if there were any ways to exploit this info. Some observations \ hints

 

1. AI first launch at 32 km max range. It is a completely hopeless shot as any kind of maneuver will defeat it.

 

2. Coming off the rail, a missile is traveling at ~3300 kph. This speed decays to between 1700 kph no maneuvering ( i.e. keep heading straight forward ) or 850 kph max maneuvering.

 

At 850 kph the missile is about as dangerous as a dead fish and is easily defeated.

 

3. If you fire a AIM120 at 32 km it will barely arrive at the intercept point doing approx 850 kph ( AI performing its normal routine ). If you wait 10 secs and fire a second missile it will arrive at the intercept point at nearly the same time but doing 1100 kph.

 

i.e. a max range Hail Mary is really a wasted missile unless you think the guy has put his jet on auto pilot and gone to get a coffee.

 

4. If you wait until the Launch lights come on (15 km) the missile will arrive at the intercept point doing approx 1700 kph which seems to be about the minimum required to have a reasonable chance at scoring a kill.

 

5. If your strategy is to drain the missiles energy then get your maneuvers underway immediately when the missile is traveling the fastest.

 

6. Missiles launched later in the engagement are travelling significantly faster so your response time is reduced and your anti-missile maneuvers need to be more accurate\aggressive. The leisurely turn to 30 deg off and gazing out the window until it is time to pull up will defeat a missile launched at max range, but a missile launched at within the NEZ is very much more deadly.

 

7. Launching at max jet velocity doesn't seem to be much of an advantage. Maybe 200 kph extra missile speed at the intercept point. Not enough to make a huge difference when you want the missile to be travelling at 1500 kph + at the intercept point.

 

I think it is better to keep your jet at a speed that will allow you to pull max instantaneous turn rate when you need it, say 800 kph or 450 kts. This is above corner velocity, but means that you have energy reserves to pull multiple max g dodges when required.

 

Hitting the AB and sprinting towards your target has +'s and -'s. It gets you into effective range sooner reducing the time your opponent has to get off effective shots. You can rush your opponent, overwhelming them and giving them too much to deal with ( not really, but worth a go ).

 

The disadvantage is AB is big NEON SHOOT ME sign. If the Mig switches to Optical system, she doesn't show up on your RWR and you only have eyeball and radar to find her. Also hitting the knife fight with too much speed reduces your turning ability. On the other hand, she is so close she doesn't need AB to spot you. She may have friends though.

 

8. Avoid launching missiles from off angle positions. The initial turn your missile makes to get on course is an energy killer. Aim at the aiming dot when shooting, I guess that is what it is there for.

 

9. Beware the IR missile, no radar, no warning

 

10. One thing I haven't investigated is high altitude encounters. Lower air density will change things I am sure.

 

Most online kills I see are in the weeds with the Russian planes sneaking around with EOS so I am not sure high level co-altitude tactics "matter" as much.

 

A suggested strategy for F15 vs X, medium altitude, head to head.

 

1. stabilise speed around 800 kph ( 450 to 500 kts ).

 

2. Wait for missile launch. When it comes, immediately begin your avoidance routine. Beaming the missile should be high on your list.

 

3. Wait for the launch lights before launching, anything launched before this is a waste of ordinance

 

4. Launch your missile when aiming directly at the aim point. Launch several with some seconds between them. Lets face it, they are useless. If you fire multiple missiles at the same time, they all use the same solution to get to the target and 1 maneuver will defeat them all.

 

5. The deadliest missiles are the ones launched within 10 km. They have tonnes of energy and very little flight time.

 

6. Life in the F15 is made more difficult by the fact that it is hard to gauge incoming missile distance from the RWR so it is hard to judge when to pull your max G dodge. At close range this is not a problem because, as soon as the missile is launched you need to be dodging.

 

The solution is to practice, maybe with a clock\second hand in front of you. The cockpit clock is too far away from the action and too small for me to use. With practice you get a feeling for when the missile is coming.

 

7. Assume an IR is coming your way, always. Once the battle closes and you are within launch range, always pull G's, as many as you can while maintaining energy. Use flares.

 

8. Now you are into the knife fight. Someone else can write this bit because I never get that close online lol!

 

For me, launching outside 15 km seems a waste of time. Using the techniques demonstrated by Ironhand (all hail!) your opponent will laugh at your missile and remain on the offensive.

 

How well does a TWS launch work on line? It is useless against AI as they have telepathy.

 

Please consider the above a purely academic treatise. I have only just gotten into Lock On. I have been online 5 times, and been shot down multiple times. My only kill was a heater shot on a friendly. The flashing HUD confused me!

 

Someone please pick holes!

 

Cheers,

 

Jase

[GGTharos]

H'mmm, these things really are quite simply as long as you don't over think them.

 

The constant angle technique is used in yacht racing and in general boating to determine if you are going to have to yield to an opponent.

 

So a HOJ shot can use a pure pursuit profile as it has a direction to the ECM emitter and doesn't need range info?

 

Let's separate LO from reality here.

A real missile will use PN in HoJ, but may ignore parts of the input if it uses an APN technique for example, or do other things like trick the jammer into making itself a target. Either way, jamming in general plain reduces Pk by preventing the missile from either tracking well, not tracking at all, or being unable to use advanced flight paths and thus arriving with less energy - or it can prevent the shot altogether.

 

In LOFC, HoJ missiles go pure. Extremely low Pk as the only worst way to guide a missile is shooting it balistically with no guidance. Pure is useless against a target that can pull a few g's.

 

I did some experiments last night F15 vs Mig29S to see if there were any ways to exploit this info. Some observations \ hints

 

1. AI first launch at 32 km max range. It is a completely hopeless shot as any kind of maneuver will defeat it.

 

2. Coming off the rail, a missile is traveling at ~3300 kph. This speed decays to between 1700 kph no maneuvering ( i.e. keep heading straight forward ) or 850 kph max maneuvering.

 

At 850 kph the missile is about as dangerous as a dead fish and is easily defeated.

 

3. If you fire a AIM120 at 32 km it will barely arrive at the intercept point doing approx 850 kph ( AI performing its normal routine ). If you wait 10 secs and fire a second missile it will arrive at the intercept point at nearly the same time but doing 1100 kph.

 

i.e. a max range Hail Mary is really a wasted missile unless you think the guy has put his jet on auto pilot and gone to get a coffee.

 

You must be flying in the weeds. But yes, in general Rmax shots are not recommended.

 

4. If you wait until the Launch lights come on (15 km) the missile will arrive at the intercept point doing approx 1700 kph which seems to be about the minimum required to have a reasonable chance at scoring a kill.

 

Congratulations, you have discovered the 'Range sub "turn and Run" ' ;). This is the second notch (from the top) of your displayed DLZ. If the target enters that area or is near it, it will have difficulty defeating your missile via maneuver.

 

5. If your strategy is to drain the missiles energy then get your maneuvers underway immediately when the missile is traveling the fastest.

 

Or save your breath and just go into the notch, dumping CMs. AFTER you counter-fire, of course :)

 

6. Missiles launched later in the engagement are travelling significantly faster so your response time is reduced and your anti-missile maneuvers need to be more accurate\aggressive. The leisurely turn to 30 deg off and gazing out the window until it is time to pull up will defeat a missile launched at max range, but a missile launched at within the NEZ is very much more deadly.

 

Right. But you can still defeat it kinematically if you know what you're doing, and there's no need for panicky moves. Calculated, precise flying is what you need. But at this point, you're rolling the dice.

 

 

7. Launching at max jet velocity doesn't seem to be much of an advantage. Maybe 200 kph extra missile speed at the intercept point. Not enough to make a huge difference when you want the missile to be travelling at 1500 kph + at the intercept point.

 

Not in LOFC. A real missile would definitely gain advantage, but we will not have that in FC - it'll be a feature of DCS missiles.

 

I think it is better to keep your jet at a speed that will allow you to pull max instantaneous turn rate when you need it, say 800 kph or 450 kts. This is above corner velocity, but means that you have energy reserves to pull multiple max g dodges when required.

 

For an F-15 you're right at corner actually. You probably want about 475 to cover for your initial maneuver.

 

Hitting the AB and sprinting towards your target has +'s and -'s. It gets you into effective range sooner reducing the time your opponent has to get off effective shots. You can rush your opponent, overwhelming them and giving them too much to deal with ( not really, but worth a go ).

 

If your opponent is flying around fat dumb and happy, go in and own him - a non-aggressive pilot is at a disadvantage when faced with agression.

 

The disadvantage is AB is big NEON SHOOT ME sign. If the Mig switches to Optical system, she doesn't show up on your RWR and you only have eyeball and radar to find her. Also hitting the knife fight with too much speed reduces your turning ability. On the other hand, she is so close she doesn't need AB to spot you. She may have friends though.

 

She? In any case, AB should only be used if you need to gain speed fast, but you can tell when they are using the optical system only (and thus putting themselves at disadvantage, especially in a team setting and with you having them on radar already).

 

8. Avoid launching missiles from off angle positions. The initial turn your missile makes to get on course is an energy killer. Aim at the aiming dot when shooting, I guess that is what it is there for.

 

That's when you're shooting far. ;)

 

9. Beware the IR missile, no radar, no warning

 

Flares out inside 10nm. That's all. Don't watch for it, just assume it's on the way, and employ your cms.

 

10. One thing I haven't investigated is high altitude encounters. Lower air density will change things I am sure.

 

Most online kills I see are in the weeds with the Russian planes sneaking around with EOS so I am not sure high level co-altitude tactics "matter" as much.

 

I have a 65nm AMRAAM kill online ... just ONE since the beginning of LO, but I also have a few 30 and 40nm kills - most high-to-high.

 

A suggested strategy for F15 vs X, medium altitude, head to head.

 

1. stabilise speed around 800 kph ( 450 to 500 kts ).

 

2. Wait for missile launch. When it comes, immediately begin your avoidance routine. Beaming the missile should be high on your list.

 

3. Wait for the launch lights before launching, anything launched before this is a waste of ordinance

 

You better know what you're doing, especially online and at high altitude ... I wouldn't necessarily follow #3.

 

4. Launch your missile when aiming directly at the aim point. Launch several with some seconds between them. Lets face it, they are useless. If you fire multiple missiles at the same time, they all use the same solution to get to the target and 1 maneuver will defeat them all.

 

5. The deadliest missiles are the ones launched within 10 km. They have tonnes of energy and very little flight time.

 

6. Life in the F15 is made more difficult by the fact that it is hard to gauge incoming missile distance from the RWR so it is hard to judge when to pull your max G dodge. At close range this is not a problem because, as soon as the missile is launched you need to be dodging.

 

The solution is to practice, maybe with a clock\second hand in front of you. The cockpit clock is too far away from the action and too small for me to use. With practice you get a feeling for when the missile is coming.

 

There's no need for a clock. A little practice will get you what you need.

 

7. Assume an IR is coming your way, always. Once the battle closes and you are within launch range, always pull G's, as many as you can while maintaining energy. Use flares.

 

Yep.

 

8. Now you are into the knife fight. Someone else can write this bit because I never get that close online lol!

 

Bah, that's simple, get on his six and pwn! ;)

 

For me, launching outside 15 km seems a waste of time. Using the techniques demonstrated by Ironhand (all hail!) your opponent will laugh at your missile and remain on the offensive.

 

Stop flying in the weeds :) And while Ironhand's tutorials are great, they only shown you one aproach.

 

How well does a TWS launch work on line? It is useless against AI as they have telepathy.

 

People tend to dodge better (but differently) than AI. People who don't know what they are doing will attempt to intercept your missile with their face (at least it'll feel like that to you). TWS works to a certain extent, but an active missile almost always gives plenty of warning. People also fly less predictably than the AI.

 

Please consider the above a purely academic treatise. I have only just gotten into Lock On. I have been online 5 times, and been shot down multiple times. My only kill was a heater shot on a friendly. The flashing HUD confused me!

 

Someone please pick holes!

 

Cheers,

 

Jase

 

You're not doing bad I'd say, at least with the theory part.

[Spidey209]

Thanks for the feedback GGTharos.

 

I realise that RL is several orders of magnitude more difficult so I am limiting myself to LO, keeps the fanboi's out of the thread too lol!

 

I think my winning strategy is go and find some dumb, fat, happy targets. They seem to be in short supply these days!

 

My Brag - I have a missile to missile kill! I don't ever expect to do it again!! Maybe I should stop now!

 

My gorgeous wife with the huge knockers says that you should stop being sexist 'cos chicks fly too!

[GGTharos]

Thanks for the feedback GGTharos.

 

I realise that RL is several orders of magnitude more difficult so I am limiting myself to LO, keeps the fanboi's out of the thread too lol!

 

I don't know about more difficult, but more complex for sure - I tend to separate 'FC' and 'RL' because more advanced missile behavior will eventually come to DCS.

 

I think my winning strategy is go and find some dumb, fat, happy targets. They seem to be in short supply these days!

 

Those are the best targets when you're not feeling aggressive (ie. old man air to air combat ;) )

 

My Brag - I have a missile to missile kill! I don't ever expect to do it again!! Maybe I should stop now!

 

Yep, this is another thing AAMs should not do - shoot down other AAMs. The heater in LOFC are particularly good at doing this. ;)

 

My gorgeous wife with the huge knockers says that you should stop being sexist 'cos chicks fly too!

 

I've not met one that meets all those criteria yet! Especially the last one.

[A.S]

and rudder into bandits 6 for the kill

 

that made my day. :D

[liotczik]

Here's a little simple engagement I used to gain proficiency at evading missiles.

 

It's a hardcore version, where you have to survive a medium range head on with MiG-29S armed with 4x R-77 and 2x R-73. Your F-15C has only bullets for the gun and consider shooting bandit down only as an additional bonus (it is possible but not easy) :) For now let's leave dogfighting for another occasion.

 

The name of the file comes from this, I've used it in the opposite way. But even now it is possible to dodge 4 missiles (he won't have the opportunity to shoot them all) and get away in one piece. One word of advice though - he's also got a gun and is set to Expert ;)

 

Feel free to modify it as you like. I suggest changing some of the following parameters and see how much impact they will have on the engagement and it's outcome:

- initial distance

- offset and aspect

- general altitude / altitude difference

- time of day / weather (clouds!, also pay attention to where the sun is)

- loadouts (f.e. try to get yourself a pair of AIM-9's and see why it is wise to carry not only AMRAAMS)

- plane types

- AI skill level

- try the same scenario with or without countermeasures

- put AI in your place and see how it does ;)

- try 1 vs 2, 2 vs 2 and 4 vs 4 scenarios

 

Try to watch tracks from at least the most interesting fights, to get the idea how things work in relation to each other, what made you evade and what caused a shotdown. Turn ON wingtip smoke and labels, if necessary. Use external cameras, because it's often hard to see everything from the cockpit, especially at first (that last is also true for the RL pilots, spatial orientation is gained with experience).

aim120 test.zip

[Pilotasso]

GG you should write a book. :D

[Spidey209]

Like Liotczik I have been using the Fast Battle Planner to set up practice engagements; Here is a quirk I have been adding the to equation.

 

- Don't use TrackIR or pan view at all. This forces you to use Radar + RWR to find the baddies. You learn to keep a mental 3D picture in your head of where everyone is;

 

This picture is updated by the information fed to you by your equipment. Because you are solely relying on radar and tews to find the NME(s) you will learn to use them effectively.

 

- Use Tacveiw to analyse your engagements. Tacveiw will spit numbers at you that are more reliable than "impressions". e.g. Missile terminal velocity directly equates to the effectiveness of your evasion maneuvers. Think you are turning tightly?, check the instantaneous turn rate numbers, compare them to your opponent(s). etc.

[GGTharos]

Like Liotczik I have been using the Fast Battle Planner to set up practice engagements; Here is a quirk I have been adding the to equation.

 

- Don't use TrackIR or pan view at all. This forces you to use Radar + RWR to find the baddies. You learn to keep a mental 3D picture in your head of where everyone is;

 

Actually, use it. Use it BIG TIME. I'm sorry to say but in this case, this is horrible advice :)

 

Flying is a very visual business, so head out of the pit! :)

[Spidey209]

Sorry GGTharos, I didn't convey my meaning very well. Don't use Free Track ONLY AS AN EXERCISE!!!!

 

Then when you get to the real deal you have uberLee7 radar skillz to match your uberLee7 visual skillz and all who oppose you will fall before you like expended chaff bundles wafting in the breeze.

 

The biggest problem most n00bs have when starting out is learning to use Radar properly.

[GGTharos]

It's not that I disagree with you about radar operation, but the problem is that by the time you have uberleet radar skills you also have a horrible habit of staring at your radar! :)

[RvEYoda]

ewr datalink + nighttime + ET ==> horror

[Spidey209]

I find, as a nOOb, the biggest barrier to improving is sheer volume of incoming information is overwhelming, so instead of assessing a situation, formulating a plan and then executing that plan, I spend most of my time like this;

 

CrapWhereIsHeHeShouldBeRightInFrontDidIActivateTheRadarProperlyYupTheLittleScannyThingyIsZoopingBackAndForthProperlyMMMMWrongModeMaybe?NopeHeIsSupposedToBeAt40kmSoMode2Whaddiyacallitagain?Doesn'tMatterIAmSure2OhYeah!!!OMG!!!NOOOBBB!!!ForgotToTiltRadarBOOOOMMMM!!!!!

 

I find it helpful to break the process down and then practice each bit and then put it all together. To avoid tunnel vision, practice radar intercepts 5x, then Helmet Intercepts or Gunzo 5x and mix it up. Try a few with all your sub-uberLee7 skillz and see if it works. etc.

 

It's not that I disagree with you about radar operation, but the problem is that by the time you have uberleet radar skills you also have a horrible habit of staring at your radar! :)

[GGTharos]

... We do all this in regular practice in the 44th ;)