F-15 WVR capabilities

[SgtPappy]

What's the overall opinion of F-15 going WVR, 1 on 1 with the plane set in this game:

 

1) gunzo?

2) every weapon except BVR-capable systems?

 

The obvious challenge in 1) is the Su-27 and -33 Flankers. However, with a better TWR, top speed and acceleration, a gunzo battle could still be won with how the Americans won a2a battles in WWII -i.e. through speed and vertical maneuvers while rarely suckering into a dog fight.

 

2) is tougher. If the Eagle were to use its vertical maneuvering capabilities, acceleration, would it be able to splash the Flanker?

 

Or would the Su-27 or Su-33 find a shot opportunity so quickly that an Eagle pilot wouldn't even be able to extend/climb sufficiently to dodge/beam/decoy a missile?

 

I ask because the F-15 has been a favorite jet of mine ever since I learned what a jet was.

I'm planning on getting the game after school. (OT: Apparently the F-15C's flaps are unfortunately in God-Mode?)

[Frostie]

The obvious challenge in 1) is the Su-27 and -33 Flankers. However, with a better TWR, top speed and acceleration, a gunzo battle could still be won with how the Americans won a2a battles in WWII -i.e. through speed and vertical maneuvers while rarely suckering into a dog fight.

Do you mean boom n zoom?

Can you imagine being prayed on from a higher altitude bandit who repeats this tactic of diving on you only for you to dodge his attack and then get your pipper on him only when he is far out of reach zooming back upto the stars, that sucks for you - the prey, what a predicament your in, but now imagine if your equipped with R-73 'Archer' IR missiles, hehe, 'zoom from that biatch!' :D

[104th_Crunch]

Lmao!

[GGTharos]

No, he means energy fighting, which can easily be kept close enough to prevent archer use ... or the use of your pipper.

 

Actually, I shouldn't say easily :P Doing energy fighting right is pretty hard.

 

Do you mean boom n zoom?

Can you imagine being prayed on from a higher altitude bandit who repeats this tactic of diving on you only for you to dodge his attack and then get your pipper on him only when he is far out of reach zooming back upto the stars, that sucks for you - the prey, what a predicament your in, but now imagine if your equipped with R-73 'Archer' IR missiles, hehe, 'zoom from that biatch!' :D

[Sov13t]

Energy Fighting = 'Another F-15 pilot crashed right as I was about to kill him from G-Lock' :music_whistling:

[GGTharos]

If you have to get into a dogfight, open with an AIM-9 launch - it's hard to see and the bandit might just not see it coming.

 

After the merge, if you choose 2-circle, he might eat your lunch since a flanker will out-rate you and he has that HMS to launch sooner with, so you may want to include getting shot at in your plan.

 

One circles aren't much better, but you can try to rmin him and start rolling scissors which if you play -very- carefully you can win. Flat scissors, forget it - the flanker easily wins that one.

 

In short, nail them BVR (beyond 5 nm) ;)

 

If the fight is gunzo, boom and zoom will work just fine, you must have to step on the rudder to divest the poor flanker pilot of the idea that there's such a thing as 'dodging' ;)

 

What's the overall opinion of F-15 going WVR, 1 on 1 with the plane set in this game:

 

1) gunzo?

2) every weapon except BVR-capable systems?

 

The obvious challenge in 1) is the Su-27 and -33 Flankers. However, with a better TWR, top speed and acceleration, a gunzo battle could still be won with how the Americans won a2a battles in WWII -i.e. through speed and vertical maneuvers while rarely suckering into a dog fight.

 

2) is tougher. If the Eagle were to use its vertical maneuvering capabilities, acceleration, would it be able to splash the Flanker?

 

Or would the Su-27 or Su-33 find a shot opportunity so quickly that an Eagle pilot wouldn't even be able to extend/climb sufficiently to dodge/beam/decoy a missile?

 

I ask because the F-15 has been a favorite jet of mine ever since I learned what a jet was.

I'm planning on getting the game after school. (OT: Apparently the F-15C's flaps are unfortunately in God-Mode?)

[GGTharos]

Funny, had penty of flanker/mig pilots do just that, then claim something along the lines of 'oh well you didn't get me, I just crashed!' ... sounds like iraqi air force to me, esp. since a bunch of them didn't even get to the g-lock point ;)

 

It also sounds like you don't know what energy fighting is! :D

 

Energy Fighting = 'Another F-15 pilot crashed right as I was about to kill him from G-Lock' :music_whistling:

[Sov13t]

I was commenting on your "Doing E fighting right is pretty hard" since majority of gamers are impatient and attain the advantage with full burners mach 500 and stratospheric flight and then when they get threatened pull too hard... like its HAWX yo fo real.

 

When have you had plenty of flanker/mig pilots do that? Thought you do not fly online? Were they bots?

Edited September 22, 2010 by Sov13t

[GGTharos]

I fly now and then, potentially incognito.

 

I've had people in rolling scissors with me depart at low enough altitudes to not recover (I've departed myself, but not quite low enough for that to happen :P ) and I've seen people just fly into the side of a hill, which I normally assume was g-loc.

 

In any case, you're right, energy on the F-15 is hard to manage. Unles you drop below a certain fuel weight, it just doesn't want to slow down when above a certain speed and you really have to think about what you're going to do post-merge. Most people don't stick to the corner speed.

 

When have you had plenty of flanker/mig pilots do that? Thought you do not fly online? Were they bots?

[Sov13t]

In any case, you're right, energy on the F-15 is hard to manage. Unles you drop below a certain fuel weight, it just doesn't want to slow down when above a certain speed and you really have to think about what you're going to do post-merge. Most people don't stick to the corner speed.

 

Which is a great addition in FC2. All aircraft maintain inertia and you feel the mass. However, from what I heard from 27 pilots... it is still not as much as it should be. Hoping for that DCS ;)

[GGTharos]

Indeed it is; the 'not enough' is an FM issue which yes, DCS ought to solve. I think you will see this in A-10C, though you should already be able to see it in the Ka-50.

 

Actually I believe, IIRC, the issue is AoA v Turn Rate which cannot be properly reconciled in the SFM ... so correct turn rate was chosen to be modeled correctly. Again, IIRC. The reason you don't have as much inertia is because the AoA stays relatively small, so it feels like you're riding on rails.

 

Which is a great addition in FC2. All aircraft maintain inertia and you feel the mass. However, from what I heard from 27 pilots... it is still not as much as it should be. Hoping for that DCS ;)

[RIPTIDE]

Energy Fighting = 'Another F-15 pilot crashed right as I was about to kill him from G-Lock' :music_whistling:

lol /applause/

[SgtPappy]

Hm yes. BnZ and E-fighting has got to be terribly more difficult now than in any WWII sim I play. Must be quite difficult to beat Flankers in any WVR fight then.

 

I suppose if I fly the F-15, it'll be BVR combat mostly and when flying the Su-27, it's be more like the classic dogfight... but with missiles. :)

[Rambler91]

I would like to point out that F-15C doesn't (at least not in major use) have any IRST equipment, except seekers of AIM-9, and every Su-27 pilot appreciate his plane for having IRST.

Eagle can "mask" AMRAAM launch in TWS, and sneak attack in VISUAL mode, but once missile is pitbull, target knows what is going on.

Even for Gunzo, F-15C still needs to lock his target with radar, so target's pilot knows that he is in danger, while RWR on Eagle on the other hand, cannot detect IRST on Su-27/Su-33/Mig-29..

 

P.S. i do not intend to be the "Flanker vs Eagle" guy, but i didn't saw that (in game) F-15C can use AWACS other than directions that pilot receives...

[GGTharos]

The AWACS in-game for the west side is weak, this is true. But it won't matter, I don't need to lock my radar onto you until I'm about to shoot, and then it's a little too late.

 

It's probably too late if I lock it before that, too, so frankly, the IRST isn't such a huge advantage in WVR unless you are already attacking from an ambush position.

 

If you attack from an ambush position with a 15, the fact that AMRAAM will warn you won't mean much either.

 

In BFM on the other hand, your main sensor is Mk1 eyeball. You don't know you're in danger when you hear your RWR, you know you're in danger when you see your bandit is behind your 3-9 line ;) If you're relying on your RWR for this (which will not warn you at moderate to high aspect anyway), you're dead.

[104th_Crunch]

...IRST isn't such a huge advantage in WVR unless you are already attacking from an ambush position.

 

...or unless you have Fox2s and you use helmet mode off boresite with a R-73 :evil:

[GGTharos]

In-game yes, in RL you steer the seeker directly, no IRST required.

 

...or unless you have Fox2s and you use helmet mode off boresite with a R-73 :evil:

[RIPTIDE]

In-game yes, in RL you steer the seeker directly, no IRST required.

Great. You don't even need to hit the fire button. Off it goes.... pew!

[GGTharos]

There is such a mode in RL, but it is dangerous to use. You hold down the missile launch consent trigger and another switch on the throttle (I don't recall which), and as you look with SHLEM, the missile will launch the moment it picks something up. Don't pan through the sun ;)

 

Great. You don't even need to hit the fire button. Off it goes.... pew!

[RIPTIDE]

There is such a mode in RL, but it is dangerous to use. You hold down the missile launch consent trigger and another switch on the throttle (I don't recall which), and as you look with SHLEM, the missile will launch the moment it picks something up. Don't pan through the sun ;)

Thats even better than the game implementation. I remember Fighters Anthology back in the day had a similar sort of effect. If you fired a heater towards the sun or in its general direction it would track straight for it. :D IIRC this was also true for A2G heat seeking weapons aswell... AND sometimes on a low sun if you fired at a ground target the missile occasional lost track and headed west towards the setting sun :D ah.. dem were the days.

[GGTharos]

Yes and no. In some respects ... or perhaps in many respects, the FC2 implementation is much easier and reliable than any RL usage method. As you yourself mentioned, there are no 'modes of failure' for the missiles save for a few specific things:

 

They can be decoyed by the sun (if you fly right), and flares, and they can be out-maneuvered. There are no other environmental distractions, or issues caused by look-down effects (they are significant for IR missiles as they are for radar missiles) etc etc. So theoretically speaking, you don't have a preference for look-up shots with IR missiles in FC2.

 

How about planes flying super-low over the water? The missile might in fact lock onto heat (esp. afterburner) reflected from the water, and at the right angle this will actually act as a decoy :) Again, N/A FC2 (or any other sim that I know of - and bvr, same happens to radar).

 

Thats even better than the game implementation.

[Sov13t]

However, in FC2... even if the target is afterburning away and there is a single flare out... the missile will track for it like a dumb kid for candy. So you already made IR missiles as useless as they can possibly be. :thumbup:

[GGTharos]

This is a 'decoy closer to missile than target' effect which is a basic thing implemented in FC2. Perhaps it needs to be tuned for decoy density.

[Rambler91]

First, thank GGTharos for earlier explanation.

 

Secondly,

However, in FC2... even if the target is afterburning away and there is a single flare out... the missile will track for it like a dumb kid for candy.

this is especially true if you're using sidewinder's own seekers for lock...

 

But,

So you already made IR missiles as useless as they can possibly be.

have you ever tried to get on his 6, and a little beneath... And when he tries Immelman, whack!!! :megalol: :megalol:

 

Also, in Gunzo DACT missions for F-15, did you notice that Immelman with plenty of energy could shake anything off your 6.. I go up, take F2 view to watch his actions, and when i'm passing 90 degrees, AI just unloads and goes away in level flight although he had me in his gun-sight ..

[GGTharos]

Because there's nearly nothing out there that will keep up with an F-15 in that sort of climb if you do it right.