F-15C Landing speed

[GGTharos]

450 or M0.95, whichever comes first. Usually a good idea to start a little higher as the initial settling into the turn will probably have you decresing speed as you try to sustain it.

 

Energy fighting is all about having more energy than the other guy, not about having loads of speed all the time. Energy fighting is difficult; most people don't even know what it is ... I reccomend Robert Shaw's book:

http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Maneuvering-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599

 

It is dry, but if you have patience not only to read it, but apply it little by little, you'll start finding yourself doing a lot better.

 

Your other option is to join a knowledgeable squadron.

 

Also, your bandits are probably set to 'excellent' in which case they are inhumanly capable of notching missiles.

 

That you cannot dodge their missiles means the following:

You do not understand the systems

there fore you cannot defeat the systems.

 

Random 'violent maneuvering' and spewing countermeasures all over the place won't help you; you'll probably just end up slow which = dead meat (you cannot dodge missiles without speed). Everything has to be applied with a specific plan and purpose.

[Boneski]

Hi Jinro you can get a Dash 1 manual if you want to enhance your procedural knowledge regarding an airframe. They are great resources for those that want to know more then the data provided in a game manual.

They also make great resources for developers along with their high time consultants and testers when trying to put as much fidelity into a program as possible giving limited budget and computing power.

But they should not be used as guidelines for how your consumer grade game should function… In most cases it will now work out.

A Dash manual can only relate to your game as a set procedural guidelines. Not a comparison document.

Regarding your test… Unless GGT graduated from the USAF test pilot school...(Dream Job) There was nothing wrong about your test Jinro…

[GGT, Please forgive the statement if you are a former or current test pilot.]

Your environment is not inside of a real cockpit... you don’t have the same fidelity as you would if you were throwing multiple tons of metal and jet around the sky above... The Dash 1's tables don't matter when you play.

Flight operations will not translate... Sadly since youwill be dogfighting against Airchair fighter pilots you will not see much realistic combat operations.

Lock ON Seems like a program that is doing Maths in real time. And not table base when it comes to modeling the “Aerodynamics”. If this is the case… that would explain some of the findings you have reported…

The rate of climb issues properly tested by GGT using the Air Force’s best practices and proper USAF Test pilot methodology may be different then other people’s findings due to CPU cycles and other things… who knows…

Use those differences and exploit them. Learn to fly the Game's F-15. Not the real one.

 

 

Wouldn't the difference in weight skew the results a bit?

 

You wouldn't happen to have a link to the document you're getting these procedures from, would you? Google keeps leading me to believe that I either have to pay $40 to download a manual, or that it's classified and I can't get it....

 

I'd like to learn how to fly the F15 properly before I jump into combat.....apparently I suck at turning dogfights.

[Jinro]

Also, your bandits are probably set to 'excellent' in which case they are inhumanly capable of notching missiles.

 

Most likely.....does the Su27 have a stall speed of under 100kts, or are the AI cheating? :P

[Moa]

The F-15 is not designed to turn with the Su-27 (more correctly, the Su-27 is designed to beat the F-15 in a turn).

 

So how do you beat the Su-27? Don't turn with it. Fire your missiles, guide them until they go active (learn how to use your radar), and run away before his missiles get you. There are subtleties and variations on this, but you'd have to join one of the "knowledgeable squadrons" to find out.

 

If you are getting close enough to the Su-27 to worry about your turn rate relative to his then you are not doing it right - there is a classic quote about USAF pilots being trained in BVR to "run away like the girls they [REDFOR] are", extend and then re-engage away from close range (maximizing the advantage of the F-15s superior radar and missiles). Keep your distance (if you are in the Su-27 you usually want to do the opposite, survive long enough to close the distance).

 

You'll also learn how to time your defensive turns to defeat their missiles. Search these forums for discussions on 'notching'.

[GGTharos]

Uh ... both? :D

 

Stall speed depends on aircraft weight and other factors. In theory a really light flanker or eagle could sail around at about 90kt without stalling, but probably ... just :)

Probably not how you want to handle missile defense realistically speaking - also, yes, the AI has a slightly simpler flight model than the player (it used to be much more UFO before FC2).

 

 

Most likely.....does the Su27 have a stall speed of under 100kts, or are the AI cheating? :P

[Pilotasso]

Dont think so, the real thing can accelerate straight up off the runway.

[Jinro]

You'll also learn how to time your defensive turns to defeat their missiles. Search these forums for discussions on 'notching'.

 

I've tried rummaging through the forums, but it seems that any post over a month old is deleted.....

 

Apparently I've been delivering BVR missiles incorrectly--I had the assumption that they were "fire and forget".....but apparently not.

[topdog]

The browsing back and forth through the forums is capped by default but you can override this, either permanently (can be set here, and as per example image below: http://forums.eagle.ru/profile.php?do=editoptions ) or temporarily (options within each forum, just to the bottom-left of any page of threads).

 

That should help expand the reach of your rummaging :)

 

When using the Search feature to get results, it will probably be pulling back threads of any age.

[Jinro]

Now here's a conundrum.....the 3-9line defeats a BVR missile....but if you launched a missile, you should still maintain radar lock on your target......but pulling the 3-9 maneuver might cause you to lose lock......

 

There's also a lot of talk about waiting to "notch"...but that requires knowing where the missile is. I'm never able to see the missile until it's too late...

Edited September 30, 2010 by Jinro

[Moa]

Now here's a conundrum.....the 3-9line defeats a BVR missile....but if you launched a missile, you should still maintain radar lock on your target......but pulling the 3-9 maneuver might cause you to lose lock......

 

Nope, can't maintain lock while notching. Neither can your enemy. Force them (Su-27 ) to notch and their missiles are defeated since they are semi-active radar homing.

 

Fortunately you have AIM-120 which are active in their terminal phase (10 nm). You support them until they reach that time and then you are free to maneuver. In this game (not real life) the R-27 series are significantly faster than the 120, so you must time everything carefully.

 

Again, there are variations on this that allow greater finesse (which is one reason online squadrons do so well - they're not cheating, just using a pool of knowledge and a lot of pratice).

 

There's also a lot of talk about waiting to "notch"...but that requires knowing where the missile is. I'm never able to see the missile until it's too late...

 

You can't 'know', you must 'guess' based on timing and what your opponent is doing. Takes practice. By the time you see a missile and have enough energy you might defeat one, but rarely two. Try not to let the missiles get that close. When in doubt, stay safe, a kill is never worth getting shot down for.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Moa

[Jinro]

Try not to let the missiles get that close. When in doubt, stay safe, a kill is never worth getting shot down for.

 

I guess I should be running more often then lol

[aaron886]

I don't appreciate your condescending tone....

 

I'm thinking logically here--and something logically doesn't make sense, so I'm expressing my confusion about it.

 

 

Fair enough. What you were doing seemed like "accusations" to me... and it would be wise do to a lot of research before throwing those around. It's just the thoughtful thing to do. You effectively said you have no idea what's going on, and then said "this isn't right if you ask me!" Didn't add up! :huh: I'm not saying your "internet voice" doesn't count, I'm saying you have to provide a basis for your argument... that's the currency for criticism.

 

I see nothing that doesn't logically make sense about the way the jets in LO fly.

 

Obviously, like you've probably realized, initial climb rate is going to vary incredibly based on how you do your "test." If you pitch 70 degrees in full throttle from 250 knots in an Eagle and a Hog both at max gross weight, take a wild guess at which one is going to climb faster!

 

If you start both from the runway and climb at the same speed and say, 5 degrees pitch, obviously they're going to climb at the same rate, at least for a while.

 

It's very situational, so if you want to compare it to real world data, you've got to follow the original test procedures, as GG mentioned. I trust it's going to be as close as the "SFM" system allows, so I don't feel the need to dig up the A-10's Dash 1 and compile a bunch of graphs to compare. If you do, let us know the result AND how you ran the test(s).

 

Remember, these aren't very detailed flight models... But then again every flight simulator you've ever tried is still just an approximation, so we're talking about varying degrees of "wrongness." DCS:A-10C is going to "feel" a lot different, for example, because it's going to be a more realistic and detailed FM. You'll probably see the effects of more aerodynamic phenomena like adverse yaw, inertial roll coupling, etc - these contribute to a more realistic flying experience because of their pronounced effects in real life. But you aren't going to see a (relatively) huge difference in climb rates, speeds, etc. That kind of "chartable data" is fairly close already, because that's the easy part to model! (Well, relatively easy.) In truth, that kind of data varies quite a bit from airframe to airframe in real life, too, so decimal precision in those numbers isn't what you should be gunning for (if you arrive at that conclusion.)

 

And to answer your retort... I'm not an Eagle or Hog driver. I do get to fly smaller airplanes a lot, so I have an appreciation for the aerodynamics and performance that you're harping on, but I also have a lot of time in the guts and environment of Lock On and I understand what is and isn't possible. ED does a pretty good job of matching up the SFM's to real world data where possible. :smilewink:

 

 

Now here's a conundrum.....the 3-9line defeats a BVR missile....but if you launched a missile, you should still maintain radar lock on your target......but pulling the 3-9 maneuver might cause you to lose lock......

 

That's a huge part of the "game" of BVR. You have to juggle the radar, geometry of the engagement, your perception of the fight around you (SA,) and still keep the pointy end going forward. BVR in simulators is not something I do enough, but knowing when there are missiles in the air is a huge part of the game too - a part that I lose too. Going to the notch is not ALWAYS the response to a launch. If you're further away, your best bet may be just to run straight away instead and let the missile run out of energy trying to chase you in a straight line. Figuring out when to do what is not something I can/should really try to help with, but you have to factor in speed, altitude, the (probable) range of the missile you're defending against, and a rough idea of the time you have while it travels to you.

 

Best of luck.

Edited October 1, 2010 by aaron886