Landing - Final Approach vectors and speed

[Thisdale]

Hey guys,

 

Got a question about landing procedures that I don’t find quite clear in the tutorial. And I find it a bit confusing compared to FSX or other sims. I want to make sure I understand this right.

 

Situation: when you contact an airbase and call “inbound”, the airport gives you’re a direction, nmiles to, QFE and runway.

 

Questions:

 

First, what the hell is a QFE? (strangely, I can’t recall hearing that before)?

 

Second, I am a bit confused about how to calculate the distance in nmiles to the airport in given heading. I’m sure there’s a way to set a “distance traveled” , I just don’t know how.

 

Third, once you get to the approach position, is the tower supposed to contact you for your final approach vector/clearance, or you have to contact the tower? The game isn’t clear and doesn’t seem to behave the same way everytime. Again in FSX you contact the tower to call final approach ready… (?)

 

 

Thanks a lot for the help with these 3 questions!

 

Cheers and fly save 

[Thisdale]

Doh, sorry about that, newb error, this is meant for the DSC:A10 forum, not the research.

Can a mod move it please?

[KillaALF]

QFE

[effte]

More than you ever wanted to know.

[Moa]

In FC1 the tower used to say "Cleared for visual". Once you have that and are number 1 aircraft on approach you can make your own way in from the Initial Approach point (or Initial Approach Fix if you are doing an instrument approach).

[Thisdale]

More than you ever wanted to know.

 

you do not have permission to access this page

:(

 

In FC1 the tower used to say "Cleared for visual". Once you have that and are number 1 aircraft on approach you can make your own way in from the Initial Approach point (or Initial Approach Fix if you are doing an instrument approach).

 

I remember that, same in Lomac. But what happens in A10? As far as i know, nothing happens right now... (?!).

 

QFE

 

Thanks for the info! that explains a lot. did i miss this in the tutorial completely?

[Moa]

If you are just learning to fly you may find that an overhead rejoin is easier than a straight in approach (since the airbases are essentially 'uncontrolled' airspace without fully-interactive tower instructions). You also get to inspect the runways (for bomb damage) and traffic, as well descending and slowing to near final approach speed. The rejoin uses low-G turns so may not be suitable for severly damaged aircraft

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_join

While listed as being used by General Aviation it is also used by several airforces (especially those that had a lot of bomb-damaged airfields in the last World War).

 

Here's a diagram for you to get an idea of this alternative to straight-in landings:

http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/sop:standard-overhead-rejoin-procedure

Edited November 18, 2010 by Moa

[effte]

you do not have permission to access this page

 

Access to the beta forum.

[Thisdale]

If you are just learning to fly you may find that an overhead rejoin is easier than a straight in approach (since the airbases are essentially 'uncontrolled' airspace without fully-interactive tower instructions). You also get to inspect the runways (for bomb damage) and traffic, as well descending and slowing to near final approach speed. The rejoin uses low-G turns so may not be suitable for severly damaged aircraft

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_join

While listed as being used by General Aviation it is also used by several airforces (especially those that had a lot of bomb-damaged airfields in the last World War).

 

Here's a diagram for you to get an idea of this alternative to straight-in landings:

http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/sop:standard-overhead-rejoin-procedure

 

That's pretty interesting read actually!

My question was rather about actual functionality in the game, since if its night and foggy, a visual approach may be impossible... Is there plan for a more advanced landing proceedure for A10? or is this what's in to stay?

 

Access to the beta forum.

 

Thanks for the pointer effte, although i already have my key and everything... i see this link: Please register at forums.eagle.ru to access a closed Beta forum. Just below it is my key. But no "button" to get access to a special section of the forum. I'm confused... (?!)

[effte]

Thanks for the pointer effte, although i already have my key and everything... i see this link: Please register at forums.eagle.ru to access a closed Beta forum. Just below it is my key. But no "button" to get access to a special section of the forum. I'm confused... (?!)

 

I think the procedure is to log in at the DCS site, go to "Payments" and click on a link under DCS:A-10.

[Thisdale]

ok actually, i think i figured it out.

 

My DCS account user is "thisdale" where as my forum user is "Thisdale"... with caps. so i presume its not recognising it because of that. lol

[Frederf]

First QFE is the altimeter setting that shows 0 when on the airport surface. QNH is the altimeter setting that shows airport elevation when on the airport surface. QNH is the practice that will be familiar to US aviators as "altimeter setting." There's also another Q-code (which I forget at the moment) altimeter setting which is basically the good ol' 29.92 pressure altitude one for flying flight levels.

 

This is all leftover stuff from DCS:Black Shark which you should probably ignore. It's unlikely that USAF aircraft operating out of Russian airfields would use the QFE method, especially with all their fancy radio altimeters.

 

Second The informative call of fly XXX for YY is something you usually do by the seat of your pants. If you fly the heading well for 20-30 miles you usually can't miss the airport. Besides, you can always ask for another vector later on. You could set the on-field TACAN station if there is one or if you were really paranoid about lost set an overhead markpoint and fly back azimuth.

 

Third The airfield ATC is very, very simple. I believe how it's supposed to work is you are cleared for the visual (and it is always the visual, that's the only approach they have) and once you are near the runway tower chimes in to give you landing clearance automatically. I've never had a pilot-initiated request to land call be responded to at all.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Frederf

[raynor]

First QFE is the altimeter setting that shows 0 when on the airport surface. QNH is the altimeter setting that shows airport elevation when on the airport surface. QNH is the practice that will be familiar to US aviators as "altimeter setting." There's also another Q-code (which I forget at the moment) altimeter setting which is basically the good ol' 29.92 pressure altitude one for flying flight levels.

 

This is all leftover stuff from DCS:Black Shark which you should probably ignore. It's unlikely that USAF aircraft operating out of Russian airfields would use the QFE method, especially with all their fancy radio altimeters.

 

Second The informative call of fly XXX for YY is something you usually do by the seat of your pants. If you fly the heading well for 20-30 miles you usually can't miss the airport. Besides, you can always ask for another vector later on. You could set the on-field TACAN station if there is one or if you were really paranoid about lost set an overhead markpoint and fly back azimuth.

 

Third The airfield ATC is very, very simple. I believe how it's supposed to work is you are cleared for the visual (and it is always the visual, that's the only approach they have) and once you are near the runway tower chimes in to give you landing clearance automatically. I've never had a pilot-initiated request to land call be responded to at all.

 

 

QNE = 29.92 pressure at mean sea level.

[pyates2104]

To do an ils approach properly you really need an approach chart. Basically you head for the TACAN and do a series of turns and legs that will but you in a position to capture the ILS localizer at a set distance and height from the runway threshold. You then capture the glide path and mosey on down it until you hear a bump and you hit the runway.:pilotfly:(CatIII C)

 

DCS is not FSX so the main aim of the sim is not to enable people to practice ILS CAT 2 and 3 approaches in bad weather. That said you can simulate it if you want but you'll need to do some reading on ILS and instrument approaches. Air Tragic in DCS will simply vector you to an Initial point for the approach, the rest is down to you.

Edited November 19, 2010 by pyates2104

[Thisdale]

First QFE is the altimeter setting that shows 0 when on the airport surface. QNH is the altimeter setting that shows airport elevation when on the airport surface. QNH is the practice that will be familiar to US aviators as "altimeter setting." There's also another Q-code (which I forget at the moment) altimeter setting which is basically the good ol' 29.92 pressure altitude one for flying flight levels.

 

This is all leftover stuff from DCS:Black Shark which you should probably ignore. It's unlikely that USAF aircraft operating out of Russian airfields would use the QFE method, especially with all their fancy radio altimeters.

 

Second The informative call of fly XXX for YY is something you usually do by the seat of your pants. If you fly the heading well for 20-30 miles you usually can't miss the airport. Besides, you can always ask for another vector later on. You could set the on-field TACAN station if there is one or if you were really paranoid about lost set an overhead markpoint and fly back azimuth.

 

Third The airfield ATC is very, very simple. I believe how it's supposed to work is you are cleared for the visual (and it is always the visual, that's the only approach they have) and once you are near the runway tower chimes in to give you landing clearance automatically. I've never had a pilot-initiated request to land call be responded to at all.

 

Thanks for your answers mate, greatly appreciated!

 

To do an ils approach properly you really need an approach chart. Basically you head for the TACAN and do a series of turns and legs that will but you in a position to capture the ILS localiser at a set distance and height from the runway threshold. You then capture the glide path and mosey on down it untill you hear a bump and you hit the runway.:pilotfly:(CatIII C)

 

DCS is not FSX so the main aim of the sim is not to enable people to pratctise ILS CAT 2 and 3 approaches in bad weather. That said you can simulate it if you want but you'll need to do some reading on ILS and instrument approaches. Air Tragic in DCS will simply vector you to an Initial point for the approach, the rest is down to you.

 

Yeah that's what i though. Not a big deal, i just wanted to be sure. I like to do things right and quite enjoyed the finality of FSX's. But i understand A10's about combat and not nagivation.

[effte]

DCS is not FSX so the main aim of the sim is not to enable people to practice ILS CAT 2 and 3 approaches in bad weather. That said you can simulate it if you want but

 

No, you can't. You can only set the cloud base down to 300 meters... :(

 

And I'm having great fun flying the A-10 in crud weather, while the rest of y'all seem to be screaming around the skies emulating the worlds most impopular (among the receivers) delivery service... ;)

[Frederf]

Clouds down to 300m but you can set "fog" density from 0 to whatever. Last time I tested a super-low-vis approach was when I was trying to shoot a 2NDB approach with the Ka-50 (which was hard and fun). I set clouds from 8,000' to 1,000' AGL and then a dense-ish fog layer under that. It had the desired effect of getting me down to about 80% MDA before I could even hope to see the approach lights.

 

Someone some day will either make up or collect some real approaches for the various airports and we can spend out time doing them till our hair goes gray (so ~5 minutes.)

[effte]

Someone some day will either make up or collect some real approaches for the various airports and we can spend out time doing them till our hair goes gray (so ~5 minutes.)

 

Got a few of them. :D

 

(No, not at liberty to share, but you should be able to get a few at Navigraph. Those are not for free though, but very cheap. Beware that the frequencies used do not match real-life, however.)

[Frederf]

Should be Russian AIP data including approaches available here. http://aviadocs.net/aip.html

[effte]

Should be Russian AIP data including approaches available here. http://aviadocs.net/aip.html

 

Oh my... never thought to look online. Just assumed they wouldn't be available. That's my prejudices hitting me right in the face! Thank you very much indeed, downloaded and very useful.

 

Here's the Georgian AIP as well:

 

http://ais.caucasus.net/eaip/html/UG-frameset-en-GB.html

 

Unfortunately the PDF chart links seem to be inoperative? Anyone else having any luck with them?

[Frederf]

Thisdale, I flew the latest Beta3 updated Landing Lesson and there are some corrections I should make to my previous statements.

 

1. ATC gives you an initial vector on contact. This is not directly to the field. ATC expects you to fly this vector. The distance isn't too much of a concern but the heading should be flown as precisely as possible. If ATC says to pattern altitude then they mean a height of 2000-3000' which you should be within or near by the time you reach the end of your first vector.

 

2. When you arrive at this position ATC will give you further instructions. When they say cleared for the visual that's your cue that it's up to you to navigate the rest of the way to the runway and are free to descend in accordance with visual approach procedures. "Contact tower" means that APP is done with you and you will have to contact tower for landing clearance. It's not automatic but it is on the same frequency (real life it wouldn't be).

[xentxo]

Are there exist Vx -(greatest altitude gain in the shortest horiz. distance) and Vy speed tables (greatest altitude gain in the shortest time) for the Su-25T?