Trim and Taking Off

I am pretty new to the DCS Black Shark Series. I've gotten about 9 hours of flight time in but I don't play in true simulator mode. One of my main problems is that I find it extremely difficult to bring myself to a hover without it moving in some random direction. I've tried using the trim but I find it difficult to get it correct because I'd set the trim and it may be a hair to the left or right causing the KA-50 to pitch. Also I find it hard using trim to find the sweet spot for a hover maneuver. Any tips for a newbie who just wants to hover?

Well, the hover hold is thee friend, friend. You start trimming for a hover under 40 KIAs, observing the VVI needle not to drop or rise above 3 ticks (or otherwise -> VRS). Once at near ideal hover (going back and forth like 10-15 KIAs from the zero), you engage the hover mode and the baby just freezes to a perfect stop. Next, to turn, just disengage the heading hold, move rudder to desired direction, then a nudge more and hit heading hold.

Welcome to the forums :)

Assuming you are referring to BS2? Are you currently playing in Game Flight Mode? Will be a wee bit easier me thinks. In any event, if you can post a track we'll be able to assist you further.

Press alt+enter. This panel will indicate where your controls are. You will be quickly able to see why your heli is moving in a certain direction. Note that wind is also a factor.

Press alt+enter. This panel will indicate where your controls are. You will be quickly able to see why your heli is moving in a certain direction. Note that wind is also a factor.

Rctrl + Enter

Thank you. :thumbup: rctrl + enter it is.

didn't know that!!

oh I didn't know about that, very handy, but what are the 2 vertical lines on the bottom left

C

First off, never tried game mode - can't comment on whether it's easier or not. If it is easier, it will mean you having to relearn down the road though. It also adds a level of confuscation, not knowing when you are seeing the simulation trying to help you and when you're seeing actual helo behaviour.

Easy, it is not. One of the first things to realize is that the DCS Ka-50 isn't trimmed for hover when on the pad (this is in the manual IIRC). This means that if you just haul up on the collective, you will in fact move rather than lift off into a stable hover. This is true-to-life. In real life, you'll rarely see no-wind conditions either, so it is something you may as well get used to.

Ease the helo off the wheels, paying close attention to what it is trying to do as the weight comes off the wheels and correcting accordingly. RCtrl+Enter is good for seeing your control inputs, but you can't be staring at it or you'll never catch the cues you do need.

Practise almost lifting off. Get the nose wheel off the ground, get a feel for what the helo is trying to do (make sure the brakes are off - RCtrl+Enter is useful here to make sure you have no control mapping conflicts), then gently reduce collective again and let her settle. Repeat until you are completely comfortable with this. Then start making small hops, just getting airborne and putting her right down again. Once you feel completely in control so far, start moving around in the hover. Forward - stable hover - forward - stable hover - left - stable hover - right - stable hover. Start turning, left and right, always returning to a stable hover. Easy does it.

Finally, a word of encouragement: My own helo piloting experience comes exclusively from PC simulators. Jane's AH-64D Longbow, DI's Hind/Apache, the SAR series, FS (crap) and finally DCS:Ka-50.

With the possible exception of the SAR series I, as an aero engineer/fixed wing pilot, find Ka-50 by far the most believable and challenging. A while ago, I found myself dumped into the RHS of a very high fidelity full simulator of a veritable whirlybird hotrod. 15 seconds after asking to skip the demonstration of the controls and have at it myself, I was asked which helos I'd flown before.

That's a comment which I think ED should take great pride in.

Those fledgling virtual aviators struggling with getting your heads (and hands, and feet) around controlling the Ka-50 can learn from the above: It is bloody hard - you're getting the full deal here - so do not despair. Keep at it, work it gradually and it will all come together sooner or later - and it will feel like sooner, even though very much later is the feeling you have when starting out. :)

A good set of controls is almost a necessity though.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to effte again." :(

Great post, couldn't agree more!

I have no trouble hovering in flight mode. But when in pure simulation mode is where I can't get it to hover. I've been doing what you said effte where I barely get my nose wheels off the ground but the helo pulls way up even without me touching the stick. Is this supposed to happen or is something not right? I've looked at the control panel when this happens and it says my joystick is perfectly centered.

The Default trim (ie perfect centred joystick) is set for keeping the Shark steady on the ground. In flight this will have you nose high and flying backwards. The trim position to hover in flight is slightly forward of the centre position. Also try manually hovering with the Flight Director, it is the Blue button beside the 4 Autopilot buttons on the right) it may be easier for now.

EDIT:- as for the Shark jumping up off the ground - it strikes me that your collective is not mapped correctly - the collective positn can be seen on the controls indicator (RCTRL-Enter) Make sure the throttle on your joystick is mapped to "Collective" and not "throttle" in the options.

Nate

In any case you might want to read this, strongly recommended:

BS Auto Pilot description and operation :joystick:

And then leave the autopilot off (stabilization features excepted, of course) until flying without it is second nature... ;)

Edit: Coming to think of it, I barely know which buttons I have mapped for the autopilot functions today... those are on my list of things I keep forgetting due to disuse. OTOH, I'm having too much fun flying around to really employ the helo in combat... where you can put them to good use.

@ Nate--IRL--,

The collective is fine for me. I guess I didn't word it correctly how it is acting, what you described where the nose goes high and you start flying backwards is what I am experiencing. Ill have to try the flight director and read up on that guide. I'll keep you posted.

EDIT:

I've seem to gotten it very close to a hover using the trim and altitude hold. I never really realized how much the wind affects you. I don't have a FFB joystick so I have difficulty telling exactly what forces are acting on the helicopter. I can get it to hover and it probably drifts around at about 10Kph but that's slow enough for me to get decent targeting done.

What would be a decent joystick to get that has force feedback?

I have no trouble hovering in flight mode. But when in pure simulation mode is where I can't get it to hover. I've been doing what you said effte where I barely get my nose wheels off the ground but the helo pulls way up even without me touching the stick. Is this supposed to happen or is something not right? I've looked at the control panel when this happens and it says my joystick is perfectly centered.

I've noticed that in BS2 the bird is extremely heavy in the ass lifting off the pad, it takes a moderate amount of forward cycling while you're pulling pitch to keep it level.

The forward cyclic input needed to go from on the ground to hover is due to the fact that the helo is not actually "level" when on the ground, but is pitched forward. Level trim on the ground is different than level trim in the air.

Conversely, if you land while trimmed for level hover, the helo will try to roll forward (don't forget to release your wheel brakes!).

I've noticed that in BS2 the bird is extremely heavy in the ass lifting off the pad, it takes a moderate amount of forward cycling while you're pulling pitch to keep it level.

Trim for take-off prior to weight-off-wheels.

Trim for take-off prior to weight-off-wheels.

pfff, i don't have that option with my glo-fuel model, i'm already used to compensating with the cyclic as it gets light on the ground, why would i do any different in the sim?

:p

This is an area where the limitations of our hardware show. IRL, you'd simply apply cyclic to keep position as you ease the helo off the pad, while keeping the force cancel (trim) button depressed. The effect would be that you can let go of the cyclic at any time and you are always "in trim" - there will never be a stick force trying to return the cyclic to center. In our sim, unless we have FFB equipment in which case I think it works as IRL, we can't do this and either have to apply cyclic input or consciously retrim one or several times. Sucks to be us.

For me, pretending that the force cancel button is U/S and applying cyclic until I'm enroute before trimming disturbs the experience the least. The cyclic forces are small in a TM WH anyway.

Cheers,

Fred

check your options, i forget which one always messes me up, but there's something in there about ....the centering option (sorry it's been way to long since i played...) I always had issues if it was set to the wrong one, and i think by default it was (for me). Other than that it's just practice (assuming you have the appropriate AP channels on)

I never really realized how much the wind affects you. I don't have a FFB joystick so I have difficulty telling exactly what forces are acting on the helicopter. I can get it to hover and it probably drifts around at about 10Kph but that's slow enough for me to get decent targeting done.

Don't expect to feel the wind drift at the cyclic.

Keep into account what great centrifugal forces the rotor-disk is building up (how the movement can be greatly affected by a 9ms wind?) !

You don't get any feedback of the "outer world" linked back to the stick. - well, unless you start to fly into a hurricane...;) - but this will be a very short flight experience!

The Ka-50 uses a force-trim system that is spring-loaded and really gets loose while you press trim down but than gets centred where you released the trim.

There is no direct force-feedback linked back from the rotor-disc to the cyclic.

Similar to this schematic:

Please observe carefully how the stick reacts after you hear the "trim release" click - to get a better understanding what a Force-Trim system does.

What would be a decent joystick to get that has force feedback?

Microsoft FFB2 joystick buying advice

I think you are talking about slightly different things? :)

What you will feel at the cyclic is the force required to correct for the wind and keep the helo in a steady hover... unless you cancel out the force through trimming (with the in-game limitations outlined above).

When you do get feedback to the controls from the rotor system in a helo (except for the smallest ones, which can be flown without hydraulics), you are usually in a world of trouble as you have either suffered a hydraulic failure or reached the limit of the hydraulic system. Loss of control is impending.

Cheers,

Fred

I think you are talking about slightly different things? :)

Hum..

I'm just answering to Twiggys assumption that he will feel wind-drift at the cyclic when using a FFB stick...

And I also don't see how my posting greatly differs with yours.:huh::)

Rotor Pitch Indicator

As others here, I find trimming hard to work in relation to hovering.

Beside what's been advised, one other thing i find useful is the RPI (Rotor Pitch Indicator), which to my resentment is placed to low in the cockpit!

When untrimmed the front wheel usually leaves the ground when RPI goes over 5 degrees (no load, no wind, no ff, B/H/P stabilized). Keeping the cyclic slightly forward with full brakes, to compensate any "remaining" tail-bump, I increase RPI (collective) to around 7 degrees for lift-off and engage Alt hold at 10 meters for a near hover. I then trim before entering auto-hover (disengaging Alt-hold).

Now, I still find the trimming the problem as it "messes up" the autopilot with the "bumps", sometimes even HDG-hold. In most cases not much but noticeable enough. I've also try to trim in auto-hover but it mostly bumps back again (or worse) when released. Keeping the trim "depressed" and then released might be a way as someone mentioned.

I've also been looking into the "dead zone" :huh:! Well, referring to the axis tuning of the joystick! According to the manual it's suppose to facilitate trim with an average amount of around 10. I can't really say does. Someone ells tried? Is dead zone on the cyclic authentic for real helicopters?

I've also try to trim in auto-hover....

Just remember the trimming in auto-hover resets the hover-point to the point on the ground where the trimmer was hit.