Trouble with bombing runs (and rockets)

[Jinro]

I'm having some issues with bombing runs--primarily altitude. My Mk82s are constantly falling short, even when I release with the pipper dead center on my target (and sometimes even after my target).

 

With the Mk20 I frequently release too low and the bomblets don't have time to do their thing. I start from 4~5000 feet, but the pipper refuses to appear in the HUD unless I'm in an insane dive, and by the time the pipper does appear, and I'm able to release the bombs, I've already hit 1500 feet and the bomb is just going to dig a hole in the ground. I tried CCIP steering, but it's very touchy so I gave up on it.

 

As for rockets--and to some extent guns--they only seem to work on thin-skinned vehicles. I dive in on a T80, let loose 24 rockets, then nearly empty my gun on him, and the bastard still won't die. Considering that I've used all my AGMs on AAA, I usually don't have those to use against them.

[Cali]

Are you trying to hit targets on a hill? as for guns kills, come in high on the tanks, that works for me. Good luck with rockets on the tank, you have to fire them close. They spread so they might not always go where you want them to.

[Jinro]

Doesn't matter where the target is; on a hill, on flat ground, I can never release my bombs until 1500 feet no matter what altitude I start from.

[Frederf]

CCIP bombing is one of the harder art forms. DCS's FCC is also not perfect. The technique used makes a big difference on accuracy. "Putting the thing on the thing" is only half the story. CCIP is only valid in its solution when it's not changing. Constant speed, constant g-loading, etc. That being said, as careful as I am in employment in a test I get usually a short bomb some 10-15m.

 

About the MK20D... stop releasing too low then :P I know the CBU-87/97/103/105 height dispensing doesn't work properly. It's not too much a stretch to gather that the timed dispensing of the Rockeye is also not functioning normally as well.

 

Normal technique is to approach at an offset (30-60 deg), keeping eyes on the target, roll and pull the TVV onto the target. Then roll upright and gently pull up to drag the PBIL through the target with constant G-loading and time the pickle when the CCIP dot travels through the target.

 

Don't try to bunt the aircraft over it will take forever and requires an awkward transition from low-g to release-g.

 

As for rockets and guns, first there's no "rockets" there are about 10 different warhead types. Guns are reaching their limit against T-55s and up. Shilkas and BMP-2s, fine. For a T-72 bring the real weapons or go home. Rockets, and this is assuming the MK5 warhead and you actually hit the hull are at best the equal to gun effectiveness.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Frederf

[Exorcet]

I tried CCIP steering, but it's very touchy so I gave up on it.

Did you mean CCRP? I fly fighters mostly, but I didn't find CCRP hard to use. It was way better than CCIP anyway.

[Jinro]

About the MK20D... stop releasing too low then

 

I have no choice--the pipper won't appear in the HUD until around 1500 feet.

 

Normal technique is to approach at an offset (30-60 deg), keeping eyes on the target, roll and pull the TVV onto the target. Then roll upright and gently pull up to drag the PBIL through the target with constant G-loading and time the pickle when the CCIP dot travels through the target.

 

Got a video demonstrating that? :P

[Frederf]

The CCIP dot is where it is in space as a consequence of the physics of the potential bomb release. Your attack maneuver must be performed in a way that the CCIP dot is viewable in the HUD frame when you are in the desired release position.

 

Shallow and slow for example will result in the CCIP dot off the HUD.

 

I should clarify that textbook proper you point the aircraft at the aim off point which is beyond the target and keep this aim off steady until at the release point. This works the FCC less but it's harder to do for the pilot, especially without visual reference to the target. The DCS FCC happily keeps up with the point-at-target method which is a lot easier to do and be accurate.

CCIP_Circuits.trk

[aaron886]

There's a lot of technical terms being thrown around, but these bombs are as dumb as they were in WWII... you have to think about the weapon, not just what's in your HUD. Imagine throwing a wad of paper into a trash can without hitting the rim... it's would be easier at a higher angle.

 

That angle is your slant angle. Aim to be in a 15-30 degree dive, and allow the computer a second to calculate the impact point. You'll achieve much greater accuracy from a higher slant angle. (The same reason dive-bombing was invented in WWI!)

 

Try what's called a "30-30 Pop." Approach the target roughly directly, and at 2 miles or so begin a moderate G, 30 degree offset turn, and in the turn, pitch to 30 degrees nose up. (Hence the name.) Hold this attitude for a moment as you acquire your target and gain altitude for your release, then reverse your turn onto the target and dive in to release. Watch your release height!

[Jinro]

Aha. Now the only issue is the render distance of the targets in FC2....they don't even appear at 2 miles :P

 

I'm also having problems with the ripple settings. They worked before but now they aren't. I select RIP PRS, and no matter what time I set, they both drop simultaneously. When I select RIP SGL, with "02" on ripple quantity, no matter what time I set, only one bomb drops.

 

The manual is a little confusing, as it says that the time is displayed in milliseconds, with the maximum being 5 milliseconds, however the maximum number is actually 95.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Jinro

[Frederf]

PRS means "pairs" so they should come off in pairs.

 

To ripple multiple stores you need multiple stores selected and you need to hold down the WR button long enough for the whole ripple to happen.

 

I don't know what this millisecond thing you are referring to is. The setting below ripple mode and quantity is impact spacing in feet. There's a minimum time interval between pulses so if you're at the minimum spacing and traveling very fast the FCC might not be able to pulse correctly.

 

RIP SGL, 4, spacing 50 means that four bombs will drop in sequence 50' apart in impact.

 

RIP PRS, 4, spacing 50 means that four bombs will drop in pairs, two together, 50', then the other two together.

[Jinro]

I don't know what this millisecond thing you are referring to is.

The manual refers to "milliseconds" and the cockpit label reads "RIP INTVL MSEC". Edited December 10, 2010 by Jinro

[Frederf]

What weapon are you profiling that has that as the ripple option?

[OutOnTheOP]

Holy crap, guys, you're going to confuse him. He's asking a question about the A-10A as depicted in FC2, and you're answering him with procedure for A-10C as depicted in DCS:WH.

 

As to the question: it's been a while since I've played LOMAC/ FC2, but yes, the bomb releases are in milliseconds. Which doesn't translate too well into feet-on-ground. It would require some math. But, assuming you come in at 250 knots at a relatively flat angle (call it 20-30 degrees, I am SO not going to work out the relative horizontal distance in a steep dive!), then:

 

You are travelling 250 knots x 1.1 knots per mph = 275mph. 275mph x 5280 feet per mile = 1,452,000 feet per hour. This equals 1,452,000 feet per hour/ 60 minutes per hour, or 24,200 feet per minute. In turn, that's 24,200 feet per minute / 60 seconds per minute = 403 feet per second. 403 feet per second / 1,000 milliseconds per second = 0.403 feet per milliseconds. 0.403 feet per millisecond x 5 milliseconds = about 2.017 feet per 5ms interval. Which sounds REALLY close to me, but the math checks out. It makes me wonder if "05" milliseconds on the ACP is really in TENS of milliseconds, which means "05" would really be 050 milliseconds, and thus about a 20 foot interval-per-click adjustment instead of 2.

 

As to why you might be dropping short of the target: as others have mentioned, you have to hold down the button until your whole string of bombs has released. I cannot remember if it was on FC2 or one of the Falcon 4 variants, but I do remember some to-do about CCIP behaviour being modified: "old" versions of the software STARTED the first impacts of the bomb string on the pipper; the correct behaviour is for the string to be CENTERED on the pipper.

 

So, if the correct CCIP behaviour is implemented, and you have a 2-bomb string selected, with 20 foot spacing, then the first bomb should hit 10 short, and the second one should hit 10 long. If you release the button before the second one drops, you'll only get the first bomb, 10 feet short.

 

Other than that... try steeper angles. Generally, GP bombs are delivered from about a 30 degree dive. This will also make your pipper easier to acquire.

[Jinro]

A spread of 60 with two Mk.20s released at about 4,000ft with CCRP can get me three kills on average. I forgot how the PRS and SGL thing worked.

 

I guess I just haven't been diving in steep enough with the iron bombs. I've tried CCRP with the iron bombs and even with that they fall short. I've always been watching the AI fly straight and level, drop the bombs and have them land in a pickle jar. :P

[Frederf]

Oh, so it is Lock On. What's weird is DCS has the "short bomb" problem too (and this isn't ripple stick error). Whoops.

 

Here's a guide for CCIP with the A-10A on SimHQ http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_101a.html

[OutOnTheOP]

It does? I haven't had ANY issues with short bombs in DCS:WH. Wind has way too much effect on bombs in DCS:WH, and anything above about 2 knots will blow your bombs 50 meters or more off target (super unrealistic, IMHO. Bombs have a lot of mass, and therefore a lot of inertia; it'd take a lot more than a couple knots of wind). If I set it to no wind, I can drop bombs into the side of a truck (especially with BSU49s. I loves them things).

 

However, CLUSTER bombs regularly drop short. I think it's because the pipper is calculated on the ballistic path of the dispenser unit (the bomb) and the submunitions have a MUCH higher drag value. Since the CBU burst altitude is currently all messed up, they usually burst too high, have too much drag too long, and therefore hit short. I've found 3500-4500 ft releases to shack CBU87 and CBU97, but attempts at high releases with CBU103 and CBU105 end up hundreds of meters short of the target.

[Jinro]

Now that I've pretty much figured out my bombing problem....now I'm having issues with SA-19s shooting down all my Mavericks and shooting me down before I have time to pop chaff.

[flydragon126]

I have a question, how should I release a dumb-bomb without any CCIP pipper? I've never released a dumb-bomb precisely.

[Frederf]

It does? I haven't had ANY issues with short bombs in DCS:WH. Wind has way too much effect on bombs in DCS:WH, and anything above about 2 knots will blow your bombs 50 meters or more off target (super unrealistic, IMHO. Bombs have a lot of mass, and therefore a lot of inertia; it'd take a lot more than a couple knots of wind). If I set it to no wind, I can drop bombs into the side of a truck (especially with BSU49s. I loves them things).

 

However, CLUSTER bombs regularly drop short. I think it's because the pipper is calculated on the ballistic path of the dispenser unit (the bomb) and the submunitions have a MUCH higher drag value. Since the CBU burst altitude is currently all messed up, they usually burst too high, have too much drag too long, and therefore hit short. I've found 3500-4500 ft releases to shack CBU87 and CBU97, but attempts at high releases with CBU103 and CBU105 end up hundreds of meters short of the target.

 

In a 30 degree dive or so from a few thousand feet Mk-82s routinely drop short. This is with zero wind. Have a look at my track file posted above and see if you see my impact and CCIP dot at release quite mis-matched.

 

CBUs are wrong because the dispense fuze functions immediately after the arming delay instead of down at the proper height of function.

 

Now that I've pretty much figured out my bombing problem....now I'm having issues with SA-19s shooting down all my Mavericks and shooting me down before I have time to pop chaff.

 

Shoot at the Tunguska with you and your wingman from different directions at the same time. He won't be able to shoot down both. Also you should be able to launch a Maverick from standoff range.

[Jinro]

Shoot at the Tunguska with you and your wingman from different directions at the same time. He won't be able to shoot down both. Also you should be able to launch a Maverick from standoff range.

 

When I launch at stand-off range he shoots the missile down. And the AI wingman is a fudging idiot and gets shot down before he even does anything.