New MIGs are coolers

[59th_Buncsi]

What you read in the plane's manual is pretty much always right; what you might THINK you're reading in the manual might not be.

 

As I said, the MiG-29 is an energy fighter compared to the F-18. It's TWR is greater than the F-18's. Frankly if you ever saw F-18 motors you'd laugh. You can take one of those and shove it right inside a MiG-29's engine, that's how small they are by comparison. :)

 

Basically this means: The F-18 can easily 'win' one turn, depending on your definition of 'win'. But after this, if the MiG-29 pilot did not slow down as well, he can just fly around the Hornet's turn circle (or just take it to the vertical) and win the fight if the F-18 doesn't take advantage of its advantage right away.

 

These two are classic energy v angles fighter :)

 

I say 1 turn will never be decided and if so, also the 29 can turn faster.

"What you read in the plane's manual is pretty much always right" --> NO!

But its a fruitless debate. I just know, what i write. Thats all, its the last from me.

[GGTharos]

I say 1 turn will never be decided and if so, also the 29 can turn faster.

 

No, it cannot. The Hornet takes the ITR cake. Sorry. The MiG will do better in sustained turns - and yes, the fight CAN be decided in one turn.

 

"What you read in the plane's manual is pretty much always right" --> NO!

But its a fruitless debate. I just know, what i write. Thats all, its the last from me.

 

Yeah. Ok. The manual that the pilot depends on is wrong. Sure. I can see mistakes happen, but that's about it. Data in the NFM's and -1's is taken from actual flight testing.

[Shinigami]

You can try looking for F-18 NFM-200.

 

Yea thats the manual and I was asking for the exercises:D

 

I don't read US F-18 propaganda jajajajajaja :D unless is how to destroy it better:D

 

Wen I was in the military service (is like in Israel, we all, except the girls have to pass it ) I sow a dogfight manual in the Unit(don't know how to say it english, en espannol es Unidad Militar para por si alguien sabe la traduccion) detailing the strong point of every planes and what to do in case of dissimilar combat etc. is a shame I couldn't steal it.:mad:

 

So here come my question, is there one of thous explaining all thats stuff or is classified like the one of my Unit????

Edited April 7, 2011 by Shinigami

[GGTharos]

Yea thats the manual and I was asking for the exercises:D

 

I don't read US F-18 propaganda jajajajajaja :D unless is how to destroy it better:D

 

What propaganda ... the data comes from flight tests. Exercises are out there but you won't hear about them without the right friends. I can tell you MiGs did not do too well in most exercises vs. F-18's. But they were mostly older MiGs too, even if some had upgrades. I'm sure in most cases MiG pilots also not as well trained as F-18 pilots for thosa exercises, so this is something to consider.

 

 

detailing the strong point of every planes and what to do in case of dissimilar combat etc. is a shame I couldn't steal it.:mad:

 

So here come my question, is there one of thous explaining all thats stuff or is classified like the one of my Unit????

 

Specifically when it comes to plane x vs plane y, yes, probably classified. But you can get a copy or R. Shaw's Fighter Combat Tactics for a general DACT discussion.

 

Anyway, combat manuals are nice, but what's nicer is number of hours spent training those maneuvers ... if your time is less than the other guy's time, you'll probably lose.

[ФрогФут]

What you read in the plane's manual is pretty much always right;

There is nothing about going on the alpha > alpha allowed in MiG-29 FM, while there is in F-18 FM(at least about max steady alpha). AFAIK soviet manual says of things the plane guarantees you to get out of it, everything above is the pilots' problem. RuAF pilots just not allowed to go anywhere above limitations(there were some sad events in the beginning of 29th service), while F/A-18 just have no AoA imitator.:)

[GGTharos]

^^^^

 

Yes, that sounds about right. In -1's it's similar 'if you exceed this AoA at this speed, stall'. Etc. In general fighter handling is taught by a real pilot.

 

In F-18, obviously the fly by wire does its best to let you just pull on the stick without killing yourself :)

[Shinigami]

What propaganda ... the data comes from flight tests. Exercises are out there but you won't hear about them without the right friends. I can tell you MiGs did not do too well in most exercises vs. F-18's. But they were mostly older MiGs too, even if some had upgrades. I'm sure in most cases MiG pilots also not as well trained as F-18 pilots for thosa exercises, so this is something to consider.

 

 

 

 

Specifically when it comes to plane x vs plane y, yes, probably classified. But you can get a copy or R. Shaw's Fighter Combat Tactics for a general DACT discussion.

 

Anyway, combat manuals are nice, but what's nicer is number of hours spent training those maneuvers ... if your time is less than the other guy's time, you'll probably lose.

 

You know were to find one for MIGs so I can hone my skills for when you get to see my R-77 (thinking in a new banner for me I just have to render some models a you would see it) in your F-18 also I guess the FC.2 expansion or patch would be compatible with the new DCS plane right????

[GGTharos]

No, and you will not find anything specific about BVR combat - that is very classified.

 

I can tell you that you might find something about MiGs with R-77's exercise vs. Hornets with AMRAAMs, and it will probably make you cry sad, sad tears ;) The MiG is not an electronically capable oponent unless you have some of the most modern variants in which case ECCM is better ... but then you have to factor in that generally the AMRAAM will outrange the RVV-AE, so one way or another it is still a difficult fight for the MiG.

 

Modern MiGs easily match F-18C I think, but I don't think there's really an operational MiG variant anywhere that can match a superhornet at this time - Frogfoot, correct me if I'm wrong :)

 

You know were to find one for MIGs so I can hone my skills for when you get to see my R-77 (thinking in a new banner for me I just have to render some models a you would see it) in your F-18 also I guess the FC.2 expansion or patch would be compatible with the new DCS plane right????

[Cali]

We talkin about real life or a game? Cause there is a big difference between the 2.

[GGTharos]

He wants to apply RL to game. I think if he found any of the real BVR manuals for the MiG-29 he'd fail to understand WHY he needs to use them in the game ... since the game doesn't model western radar and ECM superiority in this case.

[GGTharos]

Actually I do remember one exerpt from a BVR manual for MiG-23 and MiG-29, but I can't find it any longer.

 

It involved hiding from the eagle's radar as much as you could because if you could not get close, you could not defeat it. F-18's radar isn't a slouch either, but it is much smaller. With AMRAAM, the same tactics would apply. With R-77, those tactics become a little easier.

 

You know were to find one for MIGs so I can hone my skills for when you get to see my R-77 (thinking in a new banner for me I just have to render some models a you would see it) in your F-18 also I guess the FC.2 expansion or patch would be compatible with the new DCS plane right????

[59th_Buncsi]

We talkin about real life or a game? Cause there is a big difference between the 2.

 

Obviously real life...

[GGTharos]

In game things are a lot more 'fair' so you don't have to worry about BVR much.

 

They could still simulate ECM/ECCM as a best guess but it is complicated and people would just complain like crazy.

 

There are books out there for MiG/Su but they are not 'out there'. You might find bits and pieces of them, but generally there are no real BVR tactics available. For the most part you might be able to find a bunch of people writing about these tactics on this forum and on the internet. Do a few searches.

[59th_Buncsi]

 

So we have to play with what we have.:joystick:

 

Yeah... I was talking about RL...

[Shinigami]

Yeah... I was talking about RL...

 

Sorry the quote was not for you was for the other guy, Let me fix it.

 

Nonetheless it would be fun to have one just out side my house :D

[Shinigami]

We talkin about real life or a game? Cause there is a big difference between the 2.

 

Yes I will down some F-18 with my Mig-29SMT that I have in my personal Airfoce Base just outside my HOUSE LoL of course that is for the game. were else I could use it.

 

And I'm just asking for a Fighter book for Mig or Su if it any outhere something like the one I told you guys it doesn't have to be the official.

 

Also GGTharos I know that the sim don't simulate the US radars or RUS accurately, if they make like that they could not sell it because it would be secret

 

So we have to play with what we have.

[Shinigami]

Actually I do remember one exerpt from a BVR manual for MiG-23 and MiG-29, but I can't find it any longer.

 

It involved hiding from the eagle's radar as much as you could because if you could not get close, you could not defeat it. F-18's radar isn't a slouch either, but it is much smaller. With AMRAAM, the same tactics would apply. With R-77, those tactics become a little easier.

 

Well there always low fly and switching the radar off for passive radar scanning countermeasure but you have to use fly director or AWACS unless your are flying in the Su that have the most potent radar in the field,

 

There is a history about 2 russian Su-27 something patrolling the border getting a lock on a F-117 in Yugoslavia.

Edited April 7, 2011 by Shinigami

[GGTharos]

This is if they have GCI then yes. Without GCI they use a worm approach to maintain SA while keeping one plane in the notch all the time.

[Shinigami]

This is if they have GCI then yes. Without GCI they use a worm approach to maintain SA while keeping one plane in the notch all the time.

 

Well there are many variant we have to test it in the new FC, also im hoping for a china plane to for the balance.

[GGTharos]

I don't think the Chinese care for DTS right now, so I think you can stop hoping.

[Shinigami]

I didn't play A-10 but they updated the ground AAA models right???, cause the FC 2 has some issues with the low res models.

 

I'm going to download it today for test and see what's new in it..

 

Also it would be realy nice to have for the new patch or addon still don't know a hi definition models for all the planes at leasts for the mig-29 with all the mobile exhaust like the tornado model.

Edited April 7, 2011 by Shinigami

[mvsgas]

Yea thats the manual and I was asking for the exercises:D

 

I don't read US F-18 propaganda jajajajajaja :D unless is how to destroy it better:D

 

Wen I was in the military service (is like in Israel, we all, except the girls have to pass it ) I sow a dogfight manual in the Unit(don't know how to say it english, en espannol es Unidad Militar para por si alguien sabe la traduccion) detailing the strong point of every planes and what to do in case of dissimilar combat etc. is a shame I couldn't steal it.:mad:

 

So here come my question, is there one of thous explaining all thats stuff or is classified like the one of my Unit????

 

I have no idea what aircraft is better, this conversations are more about opinion that about the equipment itself. I just trying to find out what do you mean by;"I don't read US F-18 propaganda jajajajajaja " Are you saying that the aircraft user manual would not have accurate information?

 

(perdone my expa˜ol)

A my no me gustan extas conversasiones, son mas sobre la opinion personnal i tienen nada que ver con equipo. My pregunat es, que querias decir cuando dises que el manual del avion es propaganda? Eso es como decir que las instrucsiones de un producto que compras no sirven.

[Shinigami]

I have no idea what aircraft is better, this conversations are more about opinion that about the equipment itself. I just trying to find out what do you mean by;"I don't read US F-18 propaganda jajajajajaja " Are you saying that the aircraft user manual would not have accurate information?

 

(perdone my expa˜ol)

A my no me gustan extas conversasiones, son mas sobre la opinion personnal i tienen nada que ver con equipo. My pregunat es, que querias decir cuando dises que el manual del avion es propaganda? Eso es como decir que las instrucsiones de un producto que compras no sirven.

 

Hi:

 

Perhaps I expressed my self wrong but to explain it better I'm just saying that the manual that are in internet are not the real one, and they alway have a lot of misinformation, or do you think that the actual manual with all the spec are available for the public. Also the propaganda was a joke referring that the US people alway tend to underestimate the enemy weapons and don't do a real comparison with spec of both sides.

 

So bad is my english that you didn't understand....?????

 

In spanish sorry for all thous other that don't speak americano:

 

Yo solo queria decir que los manuales que hay en internet no son los reales y estan llenos de imprecisiones e informacion erronea y casi siempre aumentan las prestaciones de los aviones porque no son los reales, los reales son secretos y el que revele los manuales es acusado de alta traicion. Por otra parte era un chiste lo de la propaganda porque los US siempre estan diciendo que sus aviones son mejores y que tienen siempre lo mejor del mundo y nunca hacen una evalucion seria de los medios de combate del enemigo, claro supongo que los militares no sean tan estupidos y hagan lo mismo pues se van a llevar un gran desenganno cuando se enfrenten a uno de verdad.

 

If some one could translate better than my fell free to translate the above text I give all the poetic license and copy right..:D

 

Also I'm 100% with you about this issues, all that's mater is the ability and training of the pilot and more or less the plane of course you cannot put a fight with mig-3 against a F-86 for example but with airplanes with similar abilities the pilot is the only that's matter.

Edited April 7, 2011 by Shinigami

[GGTharos]

Hi:

 

Perhaps I expressed my self wrong but to explain it better I'm just saying that the manual that are in internet are not the real one,

 

They are. They're the unclassified operator's manuals.

 

and they alway have a lot of misinformation,

They do not. If you pick up one of those books and learn it, you could safely operate the aircraft (as far as flying goes) as long as you also have some pilot training.

 

or do you think that the actual manual with all the spec are available for the public.

Sure they are. But the stuff you would REALLY want to see, like RWR, radar, weapons operation is not. Those are classified, locked in vaults that you are not take them out of ;)

 

Also the propaganda was a joke referring that the US people alway tend to underestimate the enemy weapons and don't do a real comparison with spec of both sides.

No. Rather it is difficult to find real information, and for the most part there is a good case of easterphilia and westernphilia. Like it or not, it just turns out that the Russian aircraft lagged behind in avionics which gives most of the BVR envelope away to western aircraft. Modern eastern aircraft are small in numbers right now, though they are starting to catch up.

 

On the other hand, accusations that the US somehow has dumber aerodynamicists proved to be false.

Edited April 7, 2011 by GGTharos

[mvsgas]

Gracis, ahora por lo menos entiendo lo que querias decir. Algunos de los manuales son reales, son viejos y la informacion no es valida, perro son reales y las informacion era correcta en el pasado. Los que no hablan espanol va a ver my respuesta en ingles y se van a confundir. :D

 

I understand now