What camp are you in? AP channels or NO AP channels...

[MTFDarkEagle]

This is what I was trying to say with my biting on printed copy of manual analogy :)

Tell me about it.. I know how you feel :D

[Pigmachine]

Misread the question.. so you can delete one 'when I'm lazy' and add one to 'all the time!'

[KosPilot]

All medium to large helicopters, and many small ones, have some kind of stability augmentation system. Pilots practice flying without it in case of emergency. The other 99.99% of the time, they fly with it on. Why? The power steering analogy is best so far, I think.

 

The beauty here is that it's your game and you can play it however you want. If it makes you feel more in control to fly with AP off, more power to you. Just don't go telling the rest of us that we're missing out on something by using the AP all the time, because we're clearly not.

 

WOW, now I am amused! :D

 

My point is that whatever your preference, this sim has plenty to offer for anyone interested in trying unaided flight, and if ambitious, can be used as a prime learning tool for real flight. Yes, because it is that close to the real thing. If you ever wanted to start flying helicopters for real, flying without stability augmentation is what you will have to do. In this situation, having the tool without using it IS clearly missing out.

 

I am also part of the DCS:BS community, so when you write "... we're clearly not.", who are you speaking on behalf of and who gave you that privilege?

 

The poll relates to normal flight, maybe it should have stated basic handling. Hovering over a rooftop in turbulent cross-wind, scanning for targets on the Shkval while being shot at is nor normal flight or basic handling.

Edited March 28, 2011 by KosPilot

[KosPilot]

Fly the Shark with only one Engine gives you also a new feeling of that Sim.:thumbup: :lol:

 

Good point!

I was practicing limited power takeoff and landings just here the other day; no stores but cannon ammo @ 100%, 80% fuel, one engine running. BTW, that is also good for pre-autorotation training.

[EtherealN]

Please provide the original source of information about operational use of AP. However, I do understand why there may be such regulations.

 

The source is the SME's (Subject Matter Experts) consulted in development, which includes operational Ka-50 pilots from the Russian Army Aviation and Kamov.

[KosPilot]

The Ka-50 is designed as a single seat rotor-craft and thus it is equipped with a fair amount of systems that reduces pilot's workload.

 

AP Channel Emergency Off is for ... emergency situations. Probably a failure/malfunction or when you get seriously hit.

 

To be able to fly the Shark w/o AP channels is essential in case of emergency. To learn how to use AP channels (not just fly with them turned on) in your advantage is essential when you have to be efficient in combat.

 

While I fly with AP turned on I have no problem controling the Shark w/o AP channels. Still this occurs in 1% (or less) of my flight time with the Shark.

 

In case anyone is quite good in flying combat missions w/o AP channels, I am sure he would be even better with AP channels turned on, given he is willing to learn.

 

Definitely, and you highlight another great feature of this sim.

I also like to blow up stuff and provide adequate combat effectiveness, so when using the weapons platform as intended, I am likely to apply all aids available.

I disengage AP channels when:

1. (Often in the bright light of hindsight) I make a wrong tactical decision, thus need to make instant evasive manoeuvres.

2. Closing on a target within its gun/missile-range.

3. Repositioning on the battlefield.

3. High speed low level flight in urban environments or close terrain.

4. Aerobatics.

5. For fun.

[KosPilot]

well my car has powersteering, will turning it off make me a better driver? i think not :smartass:

 

Not suprisingly, I cannot agree to your analogy.

To me it is the difference of driving a school-bus and a sportscar :noexpression:

[Macross]

The Older Gamers Dedicated server runs a map called Urban Battle, and its great for head to head action. In close quarters against another aircraft, you are at a distinct dissadvantage with AP channels on if your opponent is flying with them dissengaged... As KosPilot puts it... its like a school bus vs a sports car. If you can keep the stand off, all well and good, but if the enemy closes onto your position, you may as well eject for all the good you can do to manuver the slugish AP channel boud Black Shark.

[KosPilot]

The source is the SME's (Subject Matter Experts) consulted in development, which includes operational Ka-50 pilots from the Russian Army Aviation and Kamov.

 

Interesting. You are quoting my post, so I must assume your answer is specifically towards the operational use of AP channels.

Since you seem to be a reliable source of information, where can I find this documented? Mind you, I don't speak or read Russian :)

What did the pilots think of the decision?

[AlphaOneSix]

I think the issue here is your poll options.

 

You are saying that using the AP during normal flight makes you lazy, at least according to your third poll option. I don't think it makes me lazy at all. Your final poll option also implies that if you want full control of the aircraft, you need to turn off the autopilot. Again, this is not correct, you can have full control just fine with the autopilot on. You seem to think that there is some restriction any time you have the autopilot on. This is not true. I get what you're hinting at, and I'm 100% for you playing the game the way you want to play it, I've always said that. Basically, you seem to be saying that during normal flight, one should fly with the AP off, when really, the only time you should be flying with the AP off is during emergency procedures training. Are you even using the trim button? Maybe this is why I seem to have no AP problems, no fighting, and no restriction of flight performance.

 

Interestingly enough, while I am no licensed pilot, I have flown the Mi-17 with and without autopilot (not same but vaguely similar to Ka-50) and I am quite practiced at hovering and traffic pattern work.

 

As far as who I'm speaking for, I will have to apologize if English is not your first language, since I tend to assume that on here, like most typical Americans, so I apologize for that. What I said was "the rest of us" by which I was referring to those of us who are missing out on something by always using the AP unless there is a specific reason not to (i.e. battle damage or training).

[Speed]

I think the issue here is your poll options.

 

You are saying that using the AP during normal flight makes you lazy, at least according to your third poll option. I don't think it makes me lazy at all. Your final poll option also implies that if you want full control of the aircraft, you need to turn off the autopilot. Again, this is not correct, you can have full control just fine with the autopilot on. You seem to think that there is some restriction any time you have the autopilot on. This is not true. I get what you're hinting at, and I'm 100% for you playing the game the way you want to play it, I've always said that. Basically, you seem to be saying that during normal flight, one should fly with the AP off, when really, the only time you should be flying with the AP off is during emergency procedures training. Are you even using the trim button? Maybe this is why I seem to have no AP problems, no fighting, and no restriction of flight performance.

 

Interestingly enough, while I am no licensed pilot, I have flown the Mi-17 with and without autopilot (not same but vaguely similar to Ka-50) and I am quite practiced at hovering and traffic pattern work.

 

As far as who I'm speaking for, I will have to apologize if English is not your first language, since I tend to assume that on here, like most typical Americans, so I apologize for that. What I said was "the rest of us" by which I was referring to those of us who are missing out on something by always using the AP unless there is a specific reason not to (i.e. battle damage or training).

 

Exactly, I don't like the implication in the poll questions that I'm lazy when I'm merely flying the helicopter the correct and (in my belief with lots of evidence and examples to back it up) the superior way.

[power5]

I have no AP loss of control when I hold the trim button so I am not sure how a AP disengaged pilot has any advantage over me. Pure skill will likely put them at an advantage over me as I do not get nearly as much practice as I would like.

[KosPilot]

I think the issue here is your poll options.

 

You are saying that using the AP during normal flight makes you lazy, at least according to your third poll option. I don't think it makes me lazy at all. Your final poll option also implies that if you want full control of the aircraft, you need to turn off the autopilot. Again, this is not correct, you can have full control just fine with the autopilot on.

 

-And please feel free to take the poll as seriously as you like :smilewink:

-Being in control and having full control are two different things, but also a matter of definitions.

 

You seem to think that there is some restriction any time you have the autopilot on. This is not true. I get what you're hinting at, and I'm 100% for you playing the game the way you want to play it, I've always said that.

 

-Where quick manoeuvring is of the essence, I find my survival rate increased with AP channels OFF. Works for me, but I am with you a 100% on individual flying style.

 

Basically, you seem to be saying that during normal flight, one should fly with the AP off, when really, the only time you should be flying with the AP off is during emergency procedures training.

 

-No, one will benefit from acquiring better overall handling-skills flying (or training) with AP channels disengaged, that being the sole choice of the individual.

I say all this to help pilots realize their own potential. With practice, it is possible and perfectly safe to control the helicopter w/o AP channels during normal flight.

 

 

Are you even using the trim button? Maybe this is why I seem to have no AP problems, no fighting, and no restriction of flight performance.

 

-Ok..? I mostly use the trim for balancing the aircraft before entering Auto-hover, and compensate for CG. For flying w/o AP channels, it's reverted to neutral as I need to compensate for crosswind and secondary effects without offsetting my reference or having the cyclic in an uncomfortable position.

 

Interestingly enough, while I am no licensed pilot, I have flown the Mi-17 with and without autopilot (not same but vaguely similar to Ka-50) and I am quite practiced at hovering and traffic pattern work.

 

-Good on you, you have done things that others only dream of doing! :)

 

As far as who I'm speaking for, I will have to apologize if English is not your first language, since I tend to assume that on here, like most typical Americans, so I apologize for that. What I said was "the rest of us" by which I was referring to those of us who are missing out on something by always using the AP unless there is a specific reason not to (i.e. battle damage or training).

 

-Not sure what you mean with your second last sentence.

No appology needed, I am just after simple facts :)

[Panzertard]

AP != Autopilot

AP = Trim & Stabilizer

Always use it.

[WynnTTr]

Yeah your poll implies that having AP is somehow less responsive or smoother than without and that's flat out wrong.

 

I can manoeuvre just fine with AP on and the proper use of the trimmer. This includes all situations from manual hovering, avoiding SAMs/AAA, to landing on a building, whatever.

 

There was a video of an actual BS pilot which was split into multi screens. One showed what his hand was doing and every time he made course corrections you could hear the trimmer being depressed and released. I learnt to fly the BS properly from that video.

 

This all reminds me of the FD arguments in the early days of the release where it was already established that it's Russian military doctrine to fly with the AP channels on and to use the trimmer!

[GGTharos]

You will not find it documented anywhere. Consultations with SMEs are usually (but not always) private, and basically none of your business ( literally, not in an 'f off' manner ).

 

The pilots themselves contribute to this rule. These helicopters are not easy to control - in fact, it is easy to fly yourself OUT of control, especially if things become busy as they might in a combat helicopter. 'Full control' as you like to call it is mostly useless.

 

Indeed, it is useful for learning how to handle a training helicopter if you load that Ka-50 very lightly, but that isn't the way it was ever meant to be flown - like most helicopters that are larger than an R-22, you have stabilization systems and you're not allowed to fly without them except for emergencies.

 

What did the pilots think of the decision? They likely were the ones who wanted it that way - for safety for one thing. You don't have the same control set, so you don't know how hard it gets to move a heli stick around, especially if you don't trim. It would simply make fighting impossible. Even with trimming, without stabilization you would have to put corrections in so often that you'd be busier trying to have 'full control' than you want to, especially when it comes to a fight. Heck, you'd tire out before you got to the fight to start with. This is real people's lives here ... not some simulator.

 

In the sim, you can do whatever, and at the worst you'll be told that ain't realistic ;)

 

 

Interesting. You are quoting my post, so I must assume your answer is specifically towards the operational use of AP channels.

Since you seem to be a reliable source of information, where can I find this documented? Mind you, I don't speak or read Russian :)

What did the pilots think of the decision?

[EtherealN]

This all reminds me of the FD arguments in the early days of the release!

 

I had exactly the same thought. :)

 

KosPilot, I don't have a link to hand to you. But said SME's gave their information on the systems and their view, and this was relayed by the people who had as their job to communicate with the SME's and verify that things were being done in appropriate manners. (Basically, this is an ancient topic going all the way back to the latter half of 2008 and early 2009, where it was hot and a lot of people refused to accept that flying with those channels on could be standard proceedure.)

 

The previously mentioned video can be found here as well: http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/Force_Feedback/485/

 

That there is flying with the stab channels on, and you can see him trim constantly, which is the proper way to handle the aircraft.

Edited March 29, 2011 by EtherealN

[159th_Falcon]

can be used as a prime learning tool for real flight. Yes, because it is that close to the real thing.

Agreed.

If you ever wanted to start flying helicopters for real, flying without stability augmentation is what you will have to do.

And you base that on what? Thin air???

 

I have flown DCS:BS for lets say 1.5 years now, always fly whit AP on.

(unless i was hit and hydraulics and the likes fail ofcourse)

 

And quite recently i was given the change to fly an S76B.

(link for those curious how one looks)

Won't go trough the whole flight in detail but it included;

straight and level,

Turns,

VFR traffic pattern

Line up whit runway and final approach

Landing till 10meters above the ground

stable hover at 3 meters above the ground

pirouette 360 degrees, (failed miserably on that one though)

Land from stable hover

Taxi to Ramp

 

All except the pirouette went uneventful and without the instructor

taking controls.

My guess is i did so well cause i flew the Shark quite a bit.

Whit Stability Augmentation Channels ON

(that's probably what your referring to whit AP)

 

So my conclusion would in fact be that if one want's to learn how to fly a real chopper by making use of DCS:BS, its best to fly whit the Stability Augmentation Channels ON (or AP on as you call it)

And i came to this conclusion by the use of facts and personal experience.

[KosPilot]

Yeah your poll implies that having AP is somehow less responsive or smoother than without and that's flat out wrong.

 

I can manoeuvre just fine with AP on and the proper use of the trimmer. This includes all situations from manual hovering, avoiding SAMs/AAA, to landing on a building, whatever.

 

There was a video of an actual BS pilot which was split into multi screens. One showed what his hand was doing and every time he made course corrections you could hear the trimmer being depressed and released. I learnt to fly the BS properly from that video.

 

This all reminds me of the FD arguments in the early days of the release where it was already established that it's Russian military doctrine to fly with the AP channels on and to use the trimmer!

 

Yeah, I have seen that video. It's awesome :)

I'll give it a closer look.

[KosPilot]

You will not find it documented anywhere. Consultations with SMEs are usually (but not always) private, and basically none of your business ( literally, not in an 'f off' manner ).

 

The pilots themselves contribute to this rule. These helicopters are not easy to control - in fact, it is easy to fly yourself OUT of control, especially if things become busy as they might in a combat helicopter. 'Full control' as you like to call it is mostly useless.

 

Indeed, it is useful for learning how to handle a training helicopter if you load that Ka-50 very lightly, but that isn't the way it was ever meant to be flown - like most helicopters that are larger than an R-22, you have stabilization systems and you're not allowed to fly without them except for emergencies.

 

What did the pilots think of the decision? They likely were the ones who wanted it that way - for safety for one thing. You don't have the same control set, so you don't know how hard it gets to move a heli stick around, especially if you don't trim. It would simply make fighting impossible. Even with trimming, without stabilization you would have to put corrections in so often that you'd be busier trying to have 'full control' than you want to, especially when it comes to a fight. Heck, you'd tire out before you got to the fight to start with. This is real people's lives here ... not some simulator.

 

In the sim, you can do whatever, and at the worst you'll be told that ain't realistic ;)

 

ED should arrange for a "Ask the Ka-50 pilot" thread. That would be so nice! :D

In that way we may have responses as:

-"Sorry, that is classified information" or "No, your idea would not work because..." or "The reason we made this decision is..." and so on.

 

Resistance of the cyclic in the Ka-50 is something I am unaware of. To my knowledge the Ka-50 have servo boosters doing the heavy work for you, PA channels (or stability augmentation) active or not.

 

Pardon me for being curious; Would you please elaborate with regards to what your real flight experience with helicopters is?

 

I had exactly the same thought. :)

 

KosPilot, I don't have a link to hand to you. But said SME's gave their information on the systems and their view, and this was relayed by the people who had as their job to communicate with the SME's and verify that things were being done in appropriate manners. (Basically, this is an ancient topic going all the way back to the latter half of 2008 and early 2009, where it was hot and a lot of people refused to accept that flying with those channels on could be standard proceedure.)

 

The previously mentioned video can be found here as well: http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/Force_Feedback/485/

 

That there is flying with the stab channels on, and you can see him trim constantly, which is the proper way to handle the aircraft.

 

Thanks for that, I appreciate your information :)

 

Agreed.

 

And you base that on what? Thin air???

 

I have flown DCS:BS for lets say 1.5 years now, always fly whit AP on.

(unless i was hit and hydraulics and the likes fail ofcourse)

 

And quite recently i was given the change to fly an S76B.

(link for those curious how one looks)

Won't go trough the whole flight in detail but it included;

straight and level,

Turns,

VFR traffic pattern

Line up whit runway and final approach

Landing till 10meters above the ground

stable hover at 3 meters above the ground

pirouette 360 degrees, (failed miserably on that one though)

Land from stable hover

Taxi to Ramp

 

All except the pirouette went uneventful and without the instructor

taking controls.

My guess is i did so well cause i flew the Shark quite a bit.

Whit Stability Augmentation Channels ON

(that's probably what your referring to whit AP)

 

So my conclusion would in fact be that if one want's to learn how to fly a real chopper by making use of DCS:BS, its best to fly whit the Stability Augmentation Channels ON (or AP on as you call it)

And i came to this conclusion by the use of facts and personal experience.

 

Congrats with your flight experience :)

 

Thank you! I thought it was strange that nobody bothered to ask :D

THIN AIR, you nailed it! :megalol: That's where we like to go flying, right?

 

My flight experience started with a scenic flight over Melbourne in a Schweitzer 300CBi. Already familiar with DCS:BS in Stability Augmented mode, I asked to try and hold the heli in a hover. Applying the same technique as what I was used to from BS in Stability Augmented mode simply didn't work; I over-compensated and the 'copter was all over the joint. It was a scenic flight, so I didn't ask any technical questions.

Rather disappointed I went back home and had a sleep on it :cry:

 

Then I started reflecting on how I observed the pilot manage the controls during flight and hover; it was not a firm press-and-hold-ease back, but a tiny nudge and then instantly back to current neutral. Frequent micro adjustments!

-Tried that with Stability Augmentation ON. It worked to some degree, but the BlackShark did not respond as quickly or much as the S300CBi so the stick input had to be much larger when using the "CBi" technique.

-Tried again with Stability Augmentation OFF... Still a bit dorsal, but WOW did I recognize the instabilities from the day before! Only now I was nudging the cyclic instead of pushing. It made a huge difference and suddenly I found myself in somewhat steady hover.

 

Nine months went by. My wife bought me a TIF (Trial Introductory Flight) for my birthday.

Up with the S300CBi again.

-Went through the individual controls including the throttle (which proved to be extremely touchy), then I was handed full control.

-Level turns

-Speed change

-Climb/descent

-A bit of fun flight following the shore-line

The instructor asked me what I have been flying before. I truthfully replied "Nothing".

He took us in for landing, lined us up for hover and we went through effect of controls IGE hover.

-Controls over to me again, all of them. Lo-and-behold!! Perfect hover at first try. The instructor was all fired up and waving with both hands to the people on the ground :D

"Since you are doing such a good job, why don't you make a spot turn to the left..."

-So I did. Not perfect; we had a bit of headwind so I drifted off 5-6 meters, but the instructor did not need to touch the controls. We were both excited :D

 

Later he told me that during his five years as an instructor, this was only the sixth time he ever have had a student that was able to hold a stabile hover and do a spot-turn during TIF.

Besides, normally he would not entrust the student with collective control until another couple of hours or so.

 

On my fifth lesson I did circuits, but that is because they forgot to run me through elementary handling since I was doing so well :smartass:

 

I am now half way to Solo flight.

 

DCS:BlackShark, without Augmented Stability, thought me how to fly. -My personal experience!

 

The turbine conversion and type training on a Bell 206 JetRanger is about 1500USD per hour. Good luck having all your required flight training on that one unless filthy rich, if they let you at all. I'd imagine a Sikorsky 76B would be even more expensive.

 

Chances are you'd have to start in a smaller machine that is all manual. Have you checked?

[159th_Falcon]

Very interesting KosPilot.

 

So maybe we can come to a conclusion then that the KA-50 more or less feels

like an smaller sized helicopter when the Stability Augmentation System is OFF?

Could also be induvidual joystick setup ingame.

But the way you describe to fly that 300 is how i flew the KA50 in game and the 76B in real.

Though i did noticed the 76B wasn't as touchy.

(maybe due to its larger overall mass?)

 

Suprises me really, but yes the smaller copters tend to be more twitchy.

 

As for learning how to fly helicopters, most likely can't afford it @ all at the moment. But ill take any change to get up in the air flying.

Just to confirm, a S300CBI is something like this right?

 

Anyways, good read so far and that you may get your PPL soon, its already expensive enough as it is.

 

Good luck and keep those rotors turning.

 

~S~

(it is your PPL your going for right?)

[Madman777]

Does holding down the trim button disengage the AP channels? If it does, anytime I turn or make a maneuver, I'm flying with no AP ... I think.

[GGTharos]

ED should arrange for a "Ask the Ka-50 pilot" thread. That would be so nice! :D

In that way we may have responses as:

-"Sorry, that is classified information" or "No, your idea would not work because..." or "The reason we made this decision is..." and so on.

 

 

How about no ;) Most of them just don't have the desire or time to be here for your (well, our collective) pleasure - the specific SME's that is. In this case it was Kamov's test pilots IIRC, and maybe some of the military ones, but I'm not sure about that.

 

Resistance of the cyclic in the Ka-50 is something I am unaware of. To my knowledge the Ka-50 have servo boosters doing the heavy work for you, PA channels (or stability augmentation) active or not.

 

In general it seems that heavy helis make it hard to move the cyclic off its trimmed position the farther out you go. Jets like an F-15 do the same with the control column. Within a few minutes you'll be too tired to fly the heli if you don't use trim.

 

 

Pardon me for being curious; Would you please elaborate with regards to what your real flight experience with helicopters is?

 

None, I just talk to people who happen to have it - both military and civvy. I also work next to an airport full of instructors.

 

 

In any case, like I said above - you can fly the heli without those channels for a learning experience just as you did, but it is most definitely not the way it is meant to be flown. It's just that we don't have a trainer either, so it works. ;)

[GGTharos]

Not exactly - more like flying with FD on rather than disengaging the AP channels. There's a difference.

 

Does holding down the trim button disengage the AP channels? If it does, anytime I turn or make a maneuver, I'm flying with no AP ... I think.

[Maulkin]

KosPilot I really enjoyed watching your track and thought it was pretty exciting to watch you challenge yourself. That tank kill was spectacular BTW as well as that high speed landing approach thingy you did at the end (without benifit of a HUD due to the previously mentioned tank destroying it). Great demonstration of your piloting skills.

 

While I do fly with the AP channels engaged, once the feces hits the occillator, I tend to slam on the Flight Director so I can have full authority of the aircraft. I do like having the dampeners engaged to smooth out my panicked jerking around of the cyclic. ;)