F-15 ... leading ledge devices

[Kula66]

Question for those who fly both: in LO, if it isn't the angles figther, is the 15 an energy fighter compare to the 27? Or do you find the margin too small to call?

[GGTharos]

Yeah. Basically, the flanker has to get the 15 to slow down to its speed *first*, then it's very difficult to get out of that mess (but you can still do it with an extension)

 

Like bflagg said, if the flanker hits 220 while you're doing 350, light the cans and zoom-climb. All he can do is try to point his nose at you to shoot up at you, risking a stall. Meantime you can come down on him, regain your speed and get on his tail for a gun pass - then up you go again.

 

Don't get me wrong though,it's not EASY to do. Angles tactics are much easier than energy tactics.

 

You can do the following though ... maintain your 350kts corner, watching him corner hard to get on your tail (that blows his E out of the water) and then you pull up - you can commence a yo-yo or whatever other maneuver you want, and he's pretty much stuck with either a level sustained turn or split-s's .Just remember ... do everything smoothly. ;)

[GGTharos]

The margin is too small to call on the energy. The 27 definitely takes the angles.

 

So it is important, if youw ant to go energy, tomake sure he's at /lower/ speed than you are first.

[bflagg]

I've never flew the 27 , so I can't really say in comparisons..(GG would be better qualified to answer this comparison) but I have taken out 27's just thru energy management with an occasional angle type move...

( the trick is, you don't have to quickly put nose on target... just keep him in sight while he is bleeding speed and losing movement abilities while you are positioning yourself for the kill..)

 

The greatest threat in this senario is the all aspects a-a the soviets carried.. so you must always watch your position...

[Cobra360]

Would think this is so.. but remember a slower moving aircraft cannot transition to a energy type fight as quickly as a 15 can..

 

To put this is another perspective... the 15 can go vertical and change the fight parameters quicker that the 27. (of course this is assuming I've got the angles vs energy types correct)

 

if the 15 stays in the same horizontal plane as the 27, then yes.. your statement stands, but the 15 was designed to be a energy fighter also... hence it can take the

fight out of the horizontal plane...... Yo-Yo's, going vertical because it can do it

to trade alititude for speed.. etc...

 

Thats the approach the USAF teaches it's F-15 pilots when fighting MiG-29s. Just shoot straight up and come bearing down on them while they are trying to re-gain speed. It leaves the MiG-29 with very few options if they let that happen.

 

Strange that tactic didn't work for the F-15Cs that went up against the Indian Su-30MKs, not the MKI with T/V.

 

Even though there were restrictions in place on the usage of the AMRAAM and the JHMCS with the AIM-9X. The F-15s could not better a 1:1 exchange ratio against the Su-30MK. Although some say it was staged to get more funding for the F/A-22, but enough on that topic.

 

Anyone see the video of German MiG-29s up against F-16s. The F-16 let the fight get slow. The F-16 HUD tape show speed down to 180kts and a 4G loading but they can still manage to get inside the trun radius of the MiG for a few seconds and take the shot. But yet again in that exercise the MiG-29 won overall to the F-16.

[Kula66]

I guess with off-bore heaters you are stuffed! Turn to extend, light the burners and you get an Archer up the ... tail!

[Cobra360]

Same goes for if your turning at really slow speeds as well. The missile will you get you even easier since you are flying so slow and can't turn into it to try and avoide it my cause the missile to overshoot.

 

Let see what happens if ED ever give the F-15 in LOMAC a midlife upgrade and add the AIM-9X JHMCS.

[Kula66]

Thats the approach the USAF teaches it's F-15 pilots when fighting MiG-29s. Just shoot straight up and come bearing down on them while they are trying to re-gain speed. It leaves the MiG-29 with very few options if they let that happen.

 

But what about against the vanilla 27?

[bflagg]

Let see what happens if ED ever give the F-15 in LOMAC a midlife upgrade and add the AIM-9X JHMCS.

 

I don't think it will ever happen by what I'm readin on the boards...

[Cobra360]

I guess the it would be about the same. The USAF has fully evaluated the MiG-29 as they bought a few in 1997 that were ment to be sold to Iran by Muldova. A few were even built to MiG-29S standard.

 

USAF F-15 pilots have only flown a few mock dogfights against the Flanker family fighters. But USAF pilots will always choose to fight the MiG and Flanker from as far as possible. A lightly fueled Su-27 has a higher T/W ratio than a MiG-29 and could easily follow a F-15 into a vertical fight. Thats why the AIM-120D is in development with 50% more range than the current C model.

[Kula66]

So in LO WVR I'm in trouble ... it all comes down to the pilot!

[Cobra360]

I don't think it will ever happen by what I'm readin on the boards...

Yeah, I know. It would be a nice thought. It would really even up the F-15 and Su-27/33. It's the Su-27/33 dogfighting ability with range advantage over the F-15 that make it my favourite fighter to battle in.

[Cobra360]

So in LO WVR I'm in trouble ... it all comes down to the pilot!

 

Yep, you said it. It takes a better pilot than most to constantly beat a Su-27 WVR.

[Kula66]

Yes but for me, the 15s cockpit/HUD are miles better ... why did they put that RWR in the 27/29/33 down by your feet!!

 

Was reading something today about the 16 v 29 and it was saying that one of the biggest advantages for the 15/16/18 was the 'switch-ology' - something like 6 switches to get the 29s weapons ready for a shot, whereas a 16 it was just one ... things like this need to be modelled more accurately - can't just ignore the weaknesses of one sides design! In 1.1 the new Russian HUD with less info is a step in the right direction!

[Cobra360]

Yes it has been noted that IRL the launch sequence of the R-27 is far less user friendly than for the AIM-7 or AIM-120. Cant comment on setting up for a guns shot or dogfight mode as I don't know.

 

One thing Russian HUDs need is a FPM like US,UK and French fighters have. I know Russian HUDs don't have them IRL but it would help a lot.

 

Sorry for going OT Mods.

[609_Recon]

"Thats why the AIM-120D is in development with 50% more range than the current C model."

 

really? cool! - is this a patch or addon implementation?

[GGTharos]

The 120D is a real missile which has not entered operational status yet. As such it won't be getting added to LOMAC.

[D-Scythe]

Man, you guys need to brush up on some things:

 

USAF F-15 pilots have only flown a few mock dogfights against the Flanker family fighters. But USAF pilots will always choose to fight the MiG and Flanker from as far as possible. A lightly fueled Su-27 has a higher T/W ratio than a MiG-29 and could easily follow a F-15 into a vertical fight. Thats why the AIM-120D is in development with 50% more range than the current C model...

...Yeah, I know. It would be a nice thought. It would really even up the F-15 and Su-27/33. It's the Su-27/33 dogfighting ability with range advantage over the F-15 that make it my favourite fighter to battle in.

 

Even up what? The F-15C was designed with a different combat philosophy in mind than the MiG-29 and Su-27. Pilots may practice low speed fighting, in the 250 knots range or less, but any USAF air-to-air pilot will tell you if you haven't won by the first one or two turns/manuevers in a dogfight, the chances of you getting killed increase exponentially. Slow speed dogfighting has no place in combat, unless you want a 1:1 kill ratio.

 

In LOMAC, you should never engage the Su-27 in a slow speed dogfight. You have to keep your speed up at corner.

 

And real world experience suggests the F-15C holds a significant edge over the Su-27 in the vertical up until both jets approach bingo fuel. Indian Fulcrum pilots claim that the Flanker is a dog WVR with any significant amount of fuel on board. And FYI, the F-15C already has a T:W greater than 1:1 with full fuel and 8 missiles - i.e. a viable combat configuration. The stuff you see the Su-27 does in air shows are not applicable in combat because the airframe would be encumbered with stores and fuel.

 

In terms of combat philosophy (kill as much as you can, as fast as possible), I think the MiG-29 more closely compares to the F-15C. Even with external tanks, it can instantly become an all-singing, dancing fighter once it punches those off, like the F-15C. Conversely, the Flanker will still have its fuel, so unless it kills its target BVR, it will either have to dump some fuel (thus telling everyone where it is) or fight fully loaded down.

 

So yeah, I AM saying the F-15C is better than the Su-27 - in some respects. Both obviously have their strengths, and if anything, ED has modelled an early F-15A/C with some APG-70 stuff rather than an actual MSIP F-15C in LOMAC, IMO. Nobody needs to "even" up anything. It all comes down to the pilot.

 

And the AIM-120D isn't official. Some sources just referred to any variant of the AIM-120 past the C7 as "AIM-120D." IIRC, provisions for a larger rocket motor has already been implemented in the AIM-120C5, but the extra space was just filled with ballast, with no new rocket being installed.

[Guest Cali]

Actually, its called leading EDGE :)

 

Oops typed to fast.

[609_Recon]

"The 120D is a real missile which has not entered operational status yet. As such it

won't be getting added to LOMAC."

__________________

 

lets test it out for the us af then in lomac ;)

[Cobra360]

I never ment to imply that the 120C-7/D was in development for LOMAC just IRL. The F-15 is finished except for bug fixes in LOMAC.

 

The Su-27 IRL is usually loaded with 11,620lbs fuel for normal missions. For longer range missions its fully fueled, all 20,720lbs of it. But this enables it to fly further and when it gets to where the fight is it's down on fuel and able to dogfight well, where as a MiG-29A has just about enough fuel to defent it's own airbase.

 

The MiG-29 is like the F-16 in the respect that it has it's full agility with full internal fuel and a max load of 6 AAMs a piece.

 

A Su-27 with 13,420lbs of fuel thats a full F15 fuel load, weighs around 45,200lbs and has max thrust of 55,116lbs. Add in 4 R-73 and 4 R-27RE missiles that gives a weapon load weighing 2,360lbs. Combat weight of 50,980lbs. Su-27 combat T/W ratio 1.08:1. With the same fuel load as a fully internal fuel F-15. Bear in mind the Su-27 is usually only filled with 11,620lbs of fuel.

 

It has been proven when Su-27s visited the US, that a fully fueled Su-27 can turn as well as the F-15C fully fueled.

 

The F-15C weighs 41,560lbs with full internal fuel. It has a max thrust of 46,900lbs. Add 4 Sidewinders and 4 AIM-120s weighing a total of 2,128lbs. F-15 combat weight of 43,688lbs. F-15C combat T/W 1.07:1. Very slightly worse than the Su-27.

 

But IRL both fighters are going to have used up a considerable amout of fuel by the time a dogfight starts.

[D-Scythe]

The Su-27 IRL is usually loaded with 11,620lbs fuel for normal missions. For longer range missions its fully fueled, all 20,720lbs of it.

 

Normal in what context? Plus by doing this you are significantly decreasing the Flanker's combat persistence, which is one of its strengths.

 

BTW, you can load an F-15C with less fuel too for a "normal" mission.

 

But this enables it to fly further and when it gets to where the fight is it's down on fuel and able to dogfight well, where as a MiG-29A has just about enough fuel to defent it's own airbase.

 

What? Combat says different my friend: you usually don't know when an enemy is going to show up. Nothing is ever as simple as FLY HERE, ENGAGE, GO HOME.

 

Usually, fighters have to CAP (i.e. FLY HERE, COVER YOUR XX MIN WINDOW, BUG OUT), and the big question is, "for how long?" when determining how much fuel you have to carry. So what if you carry all 20 000lbs of fuel and get jumped early? What do you do with that fuel?

 

Similarily, what if the enemy shows up late, and you're out of fuel?

 

A Su-27 with 13,420lbs of fuel thats a full F15 fuel load, weighs around 45,200lbs and has max thrust of 55,116lbs. Add in 4 R-73 and 4 R-27RE missiles that gives a weapon load weighing 2,360lbs. Combat weight of 50,980lbs. Su-27 combat T/W ratio 1.08:1. With the same fuel load as a fully internal fuel F-15. Bear in mind the Su-27 is usually only filled with 11,620lbs of fuel.

 

One, four each of R-73s and R-27ERs weigh more than 2360 lbs. Both missiles are relatively heavy for their classes. The Archer is over 200 lb, and the Alamo ER/ET over 500 lb = 2800 lb already. It's closer to 3000 lbs. Two, your fuel weights are mixed up: is the 1.08:1 ratio with 11 000 lb of fuel or 13400 lb of fuel? You specified both.

 

It has been proven when Su-27s visited the US, that a fully fueled Su-27 can turn as well as the F-15C fully fueled.

 

Yeah, the USAF is pretty liberal when it comes to releasing sensitive information about their jets. I don't think American's mind the possible threats to their national security. Guess I'm lucky to be Canadian.

 

And it's funny that Indian Air Force MiG-29 pilots, who've actually flown against the Su-30, claim otherwise...interesting.

 

The F-15C weighs 41,560lbs with full internal fuel. It has a max thrust of 46,900lbs. Add 4 Sidewinders and 4 AIM-120s weighing a total of 2,128lbs. F-15 combat weight of 43,688lbs. F-15C combat T/W 1.07:1. Very slightly worse than the Su-27.

 

You forgot to take into account the fact that the F-15C is a lot cleaner than the Su-27, because of its armaments arrangements. No messy pylons, rather, the largest missiles are fit snugly into the fuselage corners. Helps in the transonic/supersonic regimes, not as much in slower speed fighters (which is my point all along).

 

But IRL both fighters are going to have used up a considerable amout of fuel by the time a dogfight starts.

 

Um, that's what fuel tanks are for? Ones that you can punch off at ANYTIME.

[britgliderpilot]

Argh, fuel weights, argh, "when Flankers visited the US", argh "IRL when a dogfight starts" . . . . . . :s

 

 

Well look at ACIG for a start - not much, but a start:

 

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_288.shtml

 

Especially, scroll down to the part about Su27 maneuvring limits and emptying the specific tanks first.

 

 

I've heard about only one Flanker/F15 flight, and it was claimed as entirely different exercises by both sides. I'd like to see the place you found this information, though . . . . because from what I've seen, "It has been proven when Su-27s visited the US, that a fully fueled Su-27 can turn as well as the F-15C fully fueled." has no basis at all in fact.

 

More information required.

 

 

 

IRL, a dogfight isn't likely to start. At all. Just consider the probabilities of being shot down BVR or on the way into the merge, In Real Life.

If we're talking the F15, then it's going to be flown by some of the most proficient pilots in the world, with the full might of the USAF/IAF air defence network behind it. Getting to the dogfight doesn't happen.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, what's this got to do with slats?

[Cobra360]

The T/W ratios I used were for 13,420lbs internal fuel each which is the F-15s maximum.

The Su-27 has what is called an internal auxillary fuel tank which is never filled unless it's going out on a very long range mission. The 11,620lbs is the standard full fuel load carried IRL.

 

Seeing as the Su-27 had no drop tanks made for it. As far as I know they are now available for the Su-32/34 and the Su-35. The Su-27s pylons have to be plumbed for them which they not currently. Maybe standard in the SM upgrade plan.

 

The Indian issue with the MiG-29 is valid and true, I'm not knocking that but consider that the MiG has been in service longer and it's pilots know it better than the relativly new Su-30.

 

For example, when Iran took delivery of it's MiG-29s and used them against their F-14s in training, the F-14s beat them most of the time but that all changed when the pilots got used to fighting in their new MiG-29s. Could be a case of both.

[bflagg]

The F-15C weighs 41,560lbs with full internal fuel. It has a max thrust of 46,900lbs. Add 4 Sidewinders and 4 AIM-120s weighing a total of 2,128lbs. F-15 combat weight of 43,688lbs. F-15C combat T/W 1.07:1. Very slightly worse than the Su-27.

 

Cobra.. where did you get your information? Everything I've read says the

same thing... 60klbs of thrust for the 15. 30k for each engine.