The future of LEAVU, a more general tool?

[RvEYoda]

Well, if someone wants to cheat, he will cheat anyway. After a while of FC2, without the first version of LEAVU on the server`s, after it was hunted down by a group of people, it showed us that some loosers are still been able to cheat with export.lua is checked and tacview is blocked and so on. What I mean is, if someone needs to hack the game, and is able to get over the checked export.lua file, dosent need Yodas LEAVU.....to be looser....

 

oh, someone found a way to break IC?

[MoGas]

oh, someone found a way to break IC?

 

well, someone yes.....or I should say, some strange behavior was seen, its not 100% sure that IC is broken by the guy but, ja, strange things at least...

Edited August 24, 2011 by MoGas

[MoGas]

I guess the problem is that you are been able to change 3d objects in some way, if it is not checked (but then, no nice 3d models anymore online) and so in this case, it would be the easier way to hack, instead of hacking LEAVU in a bad way lol...

[RIPTIDE]

oh, someone found a way to break IC?

lol. Picture this as one example.

 

Guy joins in F-15C. Loads up what we can see are 2 AIM-9s. Takes off. Goes full burner close to sea level for 30mins entire flight. (internal fuel on F-15C lasts about 5 mins at sea level, gate, normally :) )

 

He engages some guys who report strange TEWS behaviour. Track shows AIM-120's spawn several miles ahead of aforementioned F-15C pilot and then are guided to their target.

 

 

That's just one example... :doh:

[RvEYoda]

lol. Picture this as one example.

 

Guy joins in F-15C. Loads up what we can see are 2 AIM-9s. Takes off. Goes full burner close to sea level for 30mins entire flight. (internal fuel on F-15C lasts about 5 mins at sea level, gate, normally :) )

 

He engages some guys who report strange TEWS behaviour. Track shows AIM-120's spawn several miles ahead of aforementioned F-15C pilot and then are guided to their target.

 

 

That's just one example... :doh:

 

That just sucks. Some people are just interested in making life worse for everyone else.

[MoGas]

That just sucks. Some people are just interested in making life worse for everyone else.

 

So in this case, thats the point, if someone wants to hack he hacks anyway.....with or without LEAVU....people need to get over this..

[Cali]

Look, I have no problems with people asking questions. You asked some questions and I tried to answer them as best as I could. But some people intentionally misread posts and intentionally ask their question in such a way to much and provoke, with little interest in an actual logical answer. Take for example the post by "MATT" about "masking". He completely (probably intentionally) misinterpreted the post and said something that had nothing to do with what I or gear did. In my post, I tried to explain that the lockon lua API, in some situations even for local sensor export, exposes too much data. Gear does not use this "unrealistic" data, that is not the intention. This is what I call "masking" this data. But someone else who writes an "unfair" data extractor could. In turn, after writing this, he said that I was masking data/problems/yadayada - He had either not understood my post (fairly possible he does not understand any of this) or was just after spreading bad stuff/provoking (also possible).

:).

 

I understand, see my response to Mogas below

 

Well, if someone wants to cheat, he will cheat anyway. After a while of FC2, without the first version of LEAVU on the server`s, after it was hunted down by a group of people, it showed us that some loosers are still been able to cheat with export.lua is checked and tacview is blocked and so on. What I mean is, if someone needs to hack the game, and is able to get over the checked export.lua file, dosent need Yodas LEAVU.....to be looser....

 

I know that if someone wants to cheat, they are going to do it anyway. I have still seen some very weird stuff in FC2, it doesn't happen that much. And if certainly has cut down since certain people haven't been flying. Maybe servers can trying allowing Leavu/gear to run on them and see how things go.

[GGTharos]

^^^^

 

Yep. My point was just this: As Yoda mentioned, some people are just intersted in stirring the pot. Yoda did a lot of good work in making LEAVU/GEAR happen and people just dissed it, feared it, etc. It was pretty sad, because frankly, he added something onto the sim that was missing from it.

 

People complain it was 'for F-15's only', but Yoda made sure the whole thing was open and set up in such a way that another programmer could easily add on flanker/mig-specific instrumentation, for example. The architecture for this was open and well set up.

 

It's just basic disrespect of another's good work, and fearmongering to shut it down.

[RIPTIDE]

I know that if someone wants to cheat, they are going to do it anyway. I have still seen some very weird stuff in FC2, it doesn't happen that much. And if certainly has cut down since certain people haven't been flying. Maybe servers can trying allowing Leavu/gear to run on them and see how things go.

Not quite as simple as that though. The level of cheating would be inversely proportional to the difficulty involved. ;) When its easy to cheat, more people cheat. When its hard to cheat, less do. There is the other matter though... if IC was turned off, its not just the cheaters that cause problems, but the guys that call other guys a cheat. When people know its easier to cheat on a certain server because of some feature or lack thereof, you see a lot of 'FFFuuuu Hax0R, cheatin' bastar...' when someone goes down. On games/sims where cheating is known to be very difficult or, dare I say, impossible, you get less disruptive behaviour like this.

[G3]

Gear will pass my servers IC, it should be embraced not feared.

Cheaters are tools and have no place here anyway.

[RvEYoda]

Not quite as simple as that though. The level of cheating would be inversely proportional to the difficulty involved. ;) When its easy to cheat, more people cheat. When its hard to cheat, less do.

 

Agree with you, but, I don't think GEAR/LEAVU actually makes it easier to cheat. Unless you consider gear/leavu to be a cheat itself, I can't help you there ^^.

[RIPTIDE]

Agree with you, but, I don't think GEAR/LEAVU actually makes it easier to cheat. Unless you consider gear/leavu to be a cheat itself, I can't help you there ^^.

I wasn't speaking about GEAR. I was speaking in general. Leavu isn't a cheat, its just the work of the Devil. :D

[RvEYoda]

I wasn't speaking about GEAR. I was speaking in general. Leavu isn't a cheat, its just the work of the Devil. :D

 

Sry, i realize what I said sort of suggests you meant gear. That was not my intention. Gear talk from the work desk :? Just wait, when I get my 3d radar and rwr out there :p. Maximize instrument capability from standard data ! :D

Edited August 24, 2011 by =RvE=Yoda

[Case]

Not quite as simple as that though. The level of cheating would be inversely proportional to the difficulty involved. ;) When its easy to cheat, more people cheat. When its hard to cheat, less do. There is the other matter though... if IC was turned off, its not just the cheaters that cause problems, but the guys that call other guys a cheat. When people know its easier to cheat on a certain server because of some feature or lack thereof, you see a lot of 'FFFuuuu Hax0R, cheatin' bastar...' when someone goes down. On games/sims where cheating is known to be very difficult or, dare I say, impossible, you get less disruptive behaviour like this.

 

Riptide hit the nail on the head.

 

In a multiplayer environment you want to stop the suspicions. Back in the day there was nothing wrong with ERI or LEAVU, as long as the scripts were part of the integrity check. This way everyone on the server would be running the scripts and no one could complain that someone was using it for cheating, as they all run it. Allowing ERI or LEAVU without checking their integrity will just result in name calling, especially as it only took commenting out one line in ERI to get exact ECM ranging.

[RvEYoda]

Yoda. I think i have to make a cut here to clarify the reasoning behind my quesitons.

I am FULLY aware of this and i have seen this misused in very ugly ways.

If i would tell i would let go off a bomb among us all, which i do not intent to do nor will do.

BUT, by asking you those questions i DO GIVE YOU A CHANCE to elucidate that matter.

Not only to calm down the concerns already out there, but also to credit your own GEAR. See it from that perspective.

 

I do not intentionally misread nor do i try to miscredit something good you do, but there are things needed to be addressed and spoken about.

 

It is that simple.

 

Peace

 

There are things that can look very similar on the surface, but the reason behind them, will often be entirely different - This is about lua APIs, exploits, cheats etc. I have already given the answers I can in previous posts.

 

Sarcasm and provocations are things I feel are somewhat abundant in previous posts. This may not have been your intention, but I am not the only one feeling it.

 

I already gave you answers to your questions. If they are not enough, than I am not capable of explaining it to you.

 

If someone wants to list, the specific flaws of the data export APIs, that is a different matter (For example table returned by function X should mask members Y,Z given condition ...). That can be done and should help ED (I have already sent messages to them about where I've found too much data is exported).

 

If you are "FULLY" aware, give an example, because you have yet to convince me you know 1 line of the API.

 

 

Riptide hit the nail on the head.

 

In a multiplayer environment you want to stop the suspicions. Back in the day there was nothing wrong with ERI or LEAVU, as long as the scripts were part of the integrity check. This way everyone on the server would be running the scripts and no one could complain that someone was using it for cheating, as they all run it. Allowing ERI or LEAVU without checking their integrity will just result in name calling, especially as it only took commenting out one line in ERI to get exact ECM ranging.

 

I'm actually thinking of taking this one step further for a "special" server, auto-disconnecting you if you don't connect to the proper datalink network in a given time limit. :)

Edited August 24, 2011 by =RvE=Yoda

[RvEYoda]

Why so offended and so defensive?

 

;)

 

(I have already sent messages to them about where I've found too much data is exported)

Good

 

 

 

Couple pages back we had only data exposed available to the sensors, now we speak about additional data-leaks within the code.

 

You see, we are coming closer ... 2nd ;)

 

check First page: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1244976&postcount=5 .

Edited August 24, 2011 by =RvE=Yoda

[Cali]

Not quite as simple as that though. The level of cheating would be inversely proportional to the difficulty involved. ;) When its easy to cheat, more people cheat. When its hard to cheat, less do. There is the other matter though... if IC was turned off, its not just the cheaters that cause problems, but the guys that call other guys a cheat. When people know its easier to cheat on a certain server because of some feature or lack thereof, you see a lot of 'FFFuuuu Hax0R, cheatin' bastar...' when someone goes down. On games/sims where cheating is known to be very difficult or, dare I say, impossible, you get less disruptive behaviour like this.

 

I realize what your saying, I had a 120 chase me up and over a hill the other day. Is that a cheat, no, just something that's messed up with the game. Like the AIM-7 that did a boomerang back in one of the REDFLAGS. Just IC the whole game where it's stock the way ed made it, no mods period then. No matter what so people are going to be idiots and do dumb things. Yes, less people will be idiots but they are still there. I bet there are people cheating on IC'ed servers as we speak.

 

Riptide hit the nail on the head.

 

In a multiplayer environment you want to stop the suspicions. Back in the day there was nothing wrong with ERI or LEAVU, as long as the scripts were part of the integrity check. This way everyone on the server would be running the scripts and no one could complain that someone was using it for cheating, as they all run it. Allowing ERI or LEAVU without checking their integrity will just result in name calling, especially as it only took commenting out one line in ERI to get exact ECM ranging.

 

That's fine to IC them, why can't or hasn't that happened now? Lots of people like LEAVU/GEAR. I have even seen more servers that allow R-77's on 27's now. Just found out yesterday that 4c server allows them on the 33 also. I don't know a whole lot about IC's, but the server IC certain files like the Su-27/R-77 mod and I don't use that mod, but I'm able to fly on it just fine. Why can't they do the same for this other stuff? Not sure if this has been talked about before, most likely it has.

[Case]

That's fine to IC them, why can't or hasn't that happened now? Lots of people like LEAVU/GEAR.

 

I don't know why squads haven't done that so far. In the 51st we've seen no need for it. Instead we use different means of promoting teamplay, through our GCI weekends and Georgian Incident campaign for instance.

 

I have even seen more servers that allow R-77's on 27's now. Just found out yesterday that 4c server allows them on the 33 also. I don't know a whole lot about IC's, but the server IC certain files like the Su-27/R-77 mod and I don't use that mod, but I'm able to fly on it just fine. Why can't they do the same for this other stuff? Not sure if this has been talked about before, most likely it has.

 

The thing with payloads it that they usually aren't included in the integrity check, mainly because the stock payloads for the strikers suck. A few months after FC2 came out a few servers decided that the rearm.lua file could be taken out of the integrity check because it would be plainly obvious if someone cheated by creating illegal payloads, it would either be in the server messages or in the stats for everyone to see.

 

For ERI/LEAVU/GEAR this is different, as there would be no way to tell if someone uses it or not except for when it is part of the integrity check. Then anyone joining would have to have it installed themselves and will have to make the decision to use it or not.

[Case]

I'm actually thinking of taking this one step further for a "special" server, auto-disconnecting you if you don't connect to the proper datalink network in a given time limit. :)

That's a cool idea also!

[Cali]

My point is people are going to try to cheat "if" that's the kind of person they are. We all know of a person that was caught many times and has been banned from more then a few servers. One server let him back in when FC2 came out and then I think they banned him again. I know RvE took a lot of flack for releasing the chaff/barrel 1 million AIM-120's trick. I thought it was a good idea that they posted it, ed needed to see how messed up things were. In the end most of us want to make the game better and play right. That should be our goal and if some people have the skill to add things that are in the real jets, that'll just be a bonus.

[Case]

I know RvE took a lot of flack for releasing the chaff/barrel 1 million AIM-120's trick. I thought it was a good idea that they posted it, ed needed to see how messed up things were.

 

I am not sure I agree with RvE releasing the video. You guys in 3Sqn found that pylon thing that could've ruined multiplayer if it had been made public but you guys decided to keep it to yourselves, and I think that was the right decision. I do agree that things were messed up and ED needed to know about it.

 

I still maintain that the debate about ERI/LEAVU/GEAR is different because with FC2 we have the opportunity to add these scripts to the integrity check which takes away the fears of them being used for cheating. This was not possible with the FC1.12 seeker, chaff and barrell roll issues (though Yoda tried to find and implement workarounds with ERI).

 

The thing that people must realize is that if we want GEAR to become main stream we have to think about how this will be received on public multiplayer servers, and I think the only way to make that happen is to include it in the integrity checks.

 

In the end most of us want to make the game better and play right. That should be our goal and if some people have the skill to add things that are in the real jets, that'll just be a bonus.

 

Couldn't agree more.

[RvEYoda]

I am not sure I agree with RvE releasing the video. You guys in 3Sqn found that pylon thing that could've ruined multiplayer if it had been made public but you guys decided to keep it to yourselves, and I think that was the right decision. I do agree that things were messed up and ED needed to know about it.

 

I still maintain that the debate about ERI/LEAVU/GEAR is different because with FC2 we have the opportunity to add these scripts to the integrity check which takes away the fears of them being used for cheating. This was not possible with the FC1.12 seeker, chaff and barrell roll issues (though Yoda tried to find and implement workarounds with ERI).

 

The thing that people must realize is that if we want GEAR to become main stream we have to think about how this will be received on public multiplayer servers, and I think the only way to make that happen is to include it in the integrity checks.

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

The video is a difficult subject. Nowadays I both agree and disagree with it. I absolutely believe it was necessary as evidence to convince people something had to be done. Although I myself never saw any actual increase in problems after it (probably the opposite), I can now see why it was trouble for people. But what do you do when u see something and you are 20 years old. (Go Go Go? :)). My goal, believe it or not, was that I wanted to make the game far more competitive (I wanted esports fc^^, and still do). To do that I saw a couple of ... problems you could say. These problems slowed down people from reaching higher limits. I believe that there should not be any artificial skill caps imposed by lack of software fidelity. I assume that 51st probably take that subject more serious than anyone, which is why, even though we weren't always on friendly terms, I kept telling people, GG also ;), that you should take up them as your hardcore testers for these subjects. I also wanted a couple of rve dogfighters pushing those subjects to the max but well,,, hubris is hubris ^^. I know you usually answer this "with teamwork you dont need.." well stop. There is NO harm in fixing a flaw in the software just because some methods aren't affected so much by it. Better to have those methods working even better, without the flaws in the first place.

 

It may have been one of the reasons for making some of the fc1->fc2 improvements, as I was also involved in/pushing the process and had to prove that some of the problems did exist by making tracks demonstrating such things excessively. Even so, I am not sure I would do the video again today. I would be very careful first to see if there was going to be the possibility of a sim sequel, and even then I'm not sure. Btw whatever that pylon exploit/problem was I assume you sent a message to a tester @ ED or directly to them. Very possible I might send such videos directly to some ED testers or ED themselves though, if I think it can help, but I don't fly much anymore. I'm more interested in the engineering challenges at the moment. I tried challanging the devs to some LUA-fighter-AI competition, but did not get any replies ;P.

 

Well anyway, shall we move back to subject? This weekend I should be able to start thinking up some new stuff, maybe do some testing. Perhaps we could organize some big test, if there is interest.

Edited August 24, 2011 by =RvE=Yoda

[RIPTIDE]

That's fine to IC them, why can't or hasn't that happened now? Lots of people like LEAVU/GEAR. I have even seen more servers that allow R-77's on 27's now. Just found out yesterday that 4c server allows them on the 33 also. I don't know a whole lot about IC's, but the server IC certain files like the Su-27/R-77 mod and I don't use that mod, but I'm able to fly on it just fine. Why can't they do the same for this other stuff? Not sure if this has been talked about before, most likely it has.

Case explained the rearm files. Don't really need to IC them because its far too obvious if someone is flying around with illegal payloads. It happens from time to time.

 

The IC's generally on a lot of servers are limited to the important stuff, but still allow 3Go/Valery/Gys models etc. The exception to this of course is the RAF server which I believe checks Bazaar. That's a very draconian approach, but I am sure they have their reasons.

 

What has been said before: The issue with GEAR/LEAVU or any other mod or enhancement that is, shall we say, 'off the beaten track' is that once you require clients to have LEAVU/GEAR installed for IC purposes then you automatically are the odd one out, in terms of the server list. And while it is a fine piece of work, lets be frank: nobody from Flanker/Fulcrum side has so far come up with the necessary instruments to have those jets benefit from it. As it stands with the current instruments in the last LEAVU version, it benefited the F-15C guys straight out of the box. So what is the end result? The server that requires LEAVU/IC to enter, begin to lose the clients, mostly the Su/MiG and I bet some of the F-15C guys. And unfortunately thats where it stands. IN the future it would be nice if there was available a more sophisticated method of ICing files and parts of files and individual lines etc. Also it would be nice if someone talented could make some instruments for the other jets aswell. That might be a way forward.

Edited August 24, 2011 by RIPTIDE

[Cali]

I am not sure I agree with RvE releasing the video. You guys in 3Sqn found that pylon thing that could've ruined multiplayer if it had been made public but you guys decided to keep it to yourselves, and I think that was the right decision. I do agree that things were messed up and ED needed to know about it.

 

I still maintain that the debate about ERI/LEAVU/GEAR is different because with FC2 we have the opportunity to add these scripts to the integrity check which takes away the fears of them being used for cheating. This was not possible with the FC1.12 seeker, chaff and barrell roll issues (though Yoda tried to find and implement workarounds with ERI).

 

The thing that people must realize is that if we want GEAR to become main stream we have to think about how this will be received on public multiplayer servers, and I think the only way to make that happen is to include it in the integrity checks.

 

 

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

We didn't want people using that so we said nothing about it, maybe there was a pm or 2 to certain people. However in 1.12 there were a bunch of other quirks that was just wrong, like the chaff/dive exploit and printscreen. Then we had maddogging ET's from 20 miles head on getting kills, 120's/77's with that crazy scan zone and being fired from 50+ miles getting kills. Maybe RvE could of went at it a different way, like pm ED (mods and tester here) and show them the video.

 

Case explained the rearm files. Don't really need to IC them because its far too obvious if someone is flying around with illegal payloads. It happens from time to time.

 

The IC's generally on a lot of servers are limited to the important stuff, but still allow 3Go/Valery/Gys models etc. The exception to this of course is the RAF server which I believe checks Bazaar. That's a very draconian approach, but I am sure they have their reasons.

 

What has been said before: The issue with GEAR/LEAVU or any other mod or enhancement that is, shall we say, 'off the beaten track' is that once you require clients to have LEAVU/GEAR installed for IC purposes then you automatically are the odd one out, in terms of the server list. And while it is a fine piece of work, lets be frank: nobody from Flanker/Fulcrum side has so far come up with the necessary instruments to have those jets benefit from it. As it stands with the current instruments in the last LEAVU version, it benefited the F-15C guys straight out of the box. So what is the end result? The server that requires LEAVU/IC to enter, begin to lose the clients, mostly the Su/MiG and I bet some of the F-15C guys. And unfortunately thats where it stands. IN the future it would be nice if there was available a more sophisticated method of ICing files and parts of files and individual lines etc. Also it would be nice if someone talented could make some instruments for the other jets aswell. That might be a way forward.

 

With you guys allowing the Su-27 to use R-77's have added a notch to the 27. Now maybe the 15 and 27 are more even since the 27 has the ET and the 15 has TWS. But then again maybe not since the Russian jets have data link. This debate will never end cause some people want it realistic and other want it even. They fail to understand that wars are uneven, one side has nicer toys.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Cali

[GGTharos]

IMHO that just takes away from FC's strength, which is DACT. But hey, if people want playability ... (can't they just go play HAWX? It's balanced!)

 

But ok, I digress. :D