Still confused about patterns

[Migo]

Hey folks I still got some problems with the patterns. I watched a lot of youtube videos but they were not really helpful because most of them start from the runway.

 

Some questions:

 

1. What are the right speeds for crosswind/downwind/baseleg/final ? Because the flight manual says to fly 250kn/-300ft per mile (starting from 2,000ft altitude) at C/D and 150kn/-300ft per mile on B. Last video I saw was from the 74th vfs. He just flew 200kn all the time to final and seemed to not care about that -300 ft per mile.

 

2. Manual says to do the pattern offset from the runway. How can I ensure to have the right offset distance ? Basically I fly the heading which ATC gives me, turn my HSI to runway heading and fly the heading at 2000ft till I meet the runway course. I turn towards the runway, what to do now ? Can I fly a specific offset distance with the help of the hsi somehow ?

 

 

I hope someone can help :)

 

greetings, Migo

Edited August 2, 2011 by Migo

[GGTharos]

You can do that with your wing instead. Maintain pattern altitude (for me it's 1500', so your mileage with this technique may vary. If you're low, you'll be too close, if you're high, too far).

 

Put the runway on one of your wingtips and stick it there - do this from about 2 nm out. You don't have to put the wing on it -right- away, you can turn away say 30 deg and wait a little. Turn back into the runway to fly parallel to it such that your wingtip is riding on the runway.

 

And voila, you're at the correct distance from the runway for a roll off the perch and final.

 

The speeds are computed based on your aircraft weight. You can do whatever you want for your downwind leg; on the turn to final you need to ride a few knots above the stall based on the weight of your plane and bank angle of the aircraft.

 

Assuming you're driving a 35000lb hog, I'd say no slower than 150, but don't exceed 180.

 

Once you settle, the approach speed (without crosswind) is based on this formula:

 

120Kt for 30000lbs aircraft +2Kt per 1000lbs of weight.

 

Landing speed (the speed you should touch down at) is 10kts less than approach speed.

 

Obviously, if you do a straight in, just use the approach speed all the way down the glide-slope after you intercept it.

 

 

In other words, the solution to what you're asking is actually a visual approach, not an instrument one. If you have to use instruments due to visibility, do a straight-in and forget overheads or other circuit patterns.

[Migo]

If you have to use instruments due to visibility, do a straight-in and forget overheads or other circuit patterns.

Ok I thought patterns are there for low visibilty situations to minimize danger. What is their use then ?

 

ATC will provide you with heading, altitude and airspeed data at which to reach the pattern entry point. From there you will fly the following legs in communication with ATC.

-From manual.

 

Does this happen ingame ? The ATC always tells me bearing, range and pattern altitude only, never wanted me to fly a pattern :(

 

greetings

[GGTharos]

Ok I thought patterns are there for low visibilty situations to minimize danger. What is their use then ?

 

How are you going to know what some other guy in a pattern is doing without being able to see them?

Patterns are good for VFR because they help you spot other traffic around the airfield, and they can be faster in some cases than straight-ins.

 

-From manual.

 

Does this happen ingame ? The ATC always tells me bearing, range and pattern altitude only, never wanted me to fly a pattern :(

 

greetings

 

The ATC will give you an initial approach fix, from there on you fly whatever you want to.

[Migo]

Patterns are good for VFR because they help you spot other traffic around the airfield, and they can be faster in some cases than straight-ins.

Roger that.

The ATC will give you an initial approach fix, from there on you fly whatever you want to.

That means... damn manual is lying again, right ? You say that ATC will only lead you to an approach fix and not to a pattern entry point as stated in the manual and ATC will not communicate with me while flying the legs, also ?

 

greetings, Migo

[GGTharos]

Have a look here for some simple info on airport traffic patterns:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airfield_traffic_pattern

 

 

And no, the ATC will not communicate with you for any of that. You're the pilot - why would the ATC tell you what to do or how to do it?

Better yet, if they tried, you should probably yell at them - there are some exceptions for large controlled airports but they're just that - exceptions.

 

All you need to do is declare that you're landing, they'll give you the required meteo info and approach fix, and after that it's up to you.

 

You can pick overhead, tactical overhead, straight in, closed patterns, high or low key, combat arrival ... the ATC couldn't and usually shouldn't care. They're not flying your plane.

[EtherealN]

One minor exception - they might request that you state legs, though usually it would just be something akin to "report downwind". I'm not 100% sure why they do that - they've only asked me for it two or three times. I'll try to remember to ask them next ATC meeting because this made me curious. :P

 

(Might just be that our tower is understaffed so the might have their heads down in paperwork. A couple years back they slashed the TWR staff at our field in half and they've described it as having a more hectic workload than the guys at ARN in spite of not even having a tenth of the traffic.)

[Migo]

And no, the ATC will not communicate with you for any of that. You're the pilot - why would the ATC tell you what to do or how to do it?

Don't ask me that ! I just quoted the manual, ask ED ! They wrote it up...

 

 

Things are clearer now. Now I need to know at which distance the pattern entry point usually is. You said something about 2nm.

[Migo]

So you're basically saying that the pilot can do whatever pattern he wants and just has to calculate it. Altitude, speeds, angles don't matter as long as the calculation fits for the landing.

 

Thanks for the answers so far but as you see I'm still confused @.@

 

500/318 is 1.6nm

Where comes this 318 from ? Edited August 2, 2011 by Migo

[jazjar]

I always do straight ins ( It's what the training mission told me! ) . I might be able to do a pattern if I wanted, but usually, I just want to get to the fun part ( landing ) ASAP, so I just call the ATC, get a fix, fly to that point, and land using ILS.

[Snoopy]

I always do straight ins ( It's what the training mission told me! ) . I might be able to do a pattern if I wanted, but usually, I just want to get to the fun part ( landing ) ASAP, so I just call the ATC, get a fix, fly to that point, and land using ILS.

 

Overheads are so much more fun especially when flying close formation with a squadmate.

[Migo]

I thought a pattern would be some kind of a "street" the aircrafts fly down to land. Instead of only one airplane landing, there could be more who join the "street" after the first one, all flying the same airspeed and using the same angles and maneuvers to avoid collision. But if one starts his pattern at 1.6nm and another at 2nm and another one at 5nm and they all do different maneuvers at different altitudes and speeds it sounds like a huge chaos.

 

But I see Paulrkii is here :) Why do you fly patterns ? Usually a formation lands using a pattern, right ?

[GGTharos]

Eh, yes and no. Read up on the page I pointed you to.

 

Since you're flying a military aircraft, you'd be expected to fly an Air Force approach - that would be an overhead, tactical overhead, or straight in. Your approach to initial however could be a TACAN penetration or something else. In most case this is N/A DCS.

 

If you're too heavy or visibility is poor, you'll do a straight in. Crosswinds could affect this also.

 

As a GA pilot, you'd be expected to fly whatever the GA convention in your country says you should fly; unless the ATC orders otherwise (this would be an exception for rather busy, large airfields)

 

If you're a commercial pilot, you'll fly whatever approach the approach plates for that airfield say you should fly.

 

Likewise, you'll be landing on the active, and you don't always get to pick direction - and with good reason. The ATC tells you what the active is, though.

 

So you're basically saying that the pilot can do whatever pattern he wants and just has to calculate it. Altitude, speeds, angles don't matter as long as the calculation fits for the landing.

 

Thanks for the answers so far but as you see I'm still confused @.@

 

Where comes this 318 from ?

Edited August 2, 2011 by GGTharos

[Migo]

Since you're flying a military aircraft, you'd be expected to fly an Air Force approach

Okay that clears things up a lot. That's all I was curious about. Maybe my first questions were not specific enough. Because I only fly the A-10c and want to know how to correctly land it.

[GGTharos]

Yep, so, overhead landing pattern unless:

 

1. Heavy (you can stall in the turn because stall speeds are higher for weight and increasing bank. Don't risk it)

2. Damaged or any kind of trouble, including hung ordnance or jammed gun. You can ignore some avionics failures but NOT if they are a result of battle damage.

3. Min fuel or flame-out.

4. Weather: Poor visibility, powerful crosswinds, etc.

 

In the above cases, straight-in.

[Migo]

(Tactical) overhead or straight-in, alright. So the circling 180° landing approach could be deleted out of the manual because it's not correct.

The circling 360° landing approach at page 501 looks like an overhead pattern, though.

[GGTharos]

It's not always correct. There are exceptions where you can find yourself using it, for example if you were doing a layover at a civillian airfield, though I just can't see that happening.

 

I have to look at the manual and I don't have it handy, will check it later.

[Migo]

Everyone in the USAF calls it the overhead break or the tactical overhead pattern or battle break

Thanks for reply again :) I understood most of the stuff now.

for example if you were doing a layover at a civillian airfield,

Why should I use the 180° circling approach instead of the overhead pattern then ?

[GGTharos]

Because you're supposed to at that airport to conform to their traffic patterns. In other words, N/A DCS, and in reality you'd probably do a straight-in there anyway, I'm guessing - depend son how busy the airfield is.

[Migo]

So different countries and airfields have different patterns and rules to follow, that makes sense at least. You guys solved it again, thanks so much !

Edited August 2, 2011 by Migo

[nomdeplume]

Here's a F-15 doing it. Helps to see it.

 

This video might also be helpful in terms of visualising what it's about. It's done with MS Flight Sim and shows an external view followed by the pilots' view.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbe_gfk7Cuc

[Snoopy]

Straight from the C-1...keep in mind the picture for overhead is missleading as it shows you break in the middle of the runway but the actual procedure is just after the numbers.

 

 

 

 

[GGTharos]

The -1 doesn't teach you how to fly the overhead. It has a couple things in it, but not enough information to fly the overhead from.

 

It gives you some entry speeds, but 'xkts minimum' is pretty useless when flying in formation, since you need to keep spacing after the break.

 

You need to fly the same speed (every time), break in the same way, slow down in the same way, gear flaps and roll off the perch at the same points.

 

The -1 tells you none of this. What you need is either an AFMAN which describes it in detail, or flight training where they teach you to do it 'The Air Force way'.

 

nomdeplume's link is ok, but not great - at least it gives you an idea and isn't a bomber pattern.

 

Breaking over the middle of the runway is fine; if you're in a flight with more than two aircraft, it's too late, so you'd break over the numbers.

[Snoopy]

The -1 doesn't teach you how to fly the overhead. It has a couple things in it, but not enough information to fly the overhead from.

 

It gives you some entry speeds, but 'xkts minimum' is pretty useless when flying in formation, since you need to keep spacing after the break.

 

You need to fly the same speed (every time), break in the same way, slow down in the same way, gear flaps and roll off the perch at the same points.

 

The -1 tells you none of this. What you need is either an AFMAN which describes it in detail, or flight training where they teach you to do it 'The Air Force way'.

 

nomdeplume's link is ok, but not great - at least it gives you an idea and isn't a bomber pattern.

 

Breaking over the middle of the runway is fine; if you're in a flight with more than two aircraft, it's too late, so you'd break over the numbers.

 

You're right the -1 is vague but the 3.3A-10 is what is used for real world training and what I used for the formation guide I developed.

[Migo]

Thanks for the pictures, and yea your formation-guide helps a lot :)