BFM talk (split)

[FLANKERATOR]

EDIT: @Flankerator, we need a middle finger animation as well, a. to recreate Top Gun and b. because I can see some great screenshots coming out of it.

 

LMAO !

 

@AMRAAM_Missiles : In 1 on 1, try to use the superior thrust-to-weight ratio of the Eagle. Try to drag the Flanker up into a spiral and wait for the right moment to go vertical, you'll end up on its 6 most of the time. This is one of the most popular tactics used by Eagle drivers against the Su-27.

 

In many vs many, I'd recommend hit and run tactics, use the F-15's superior acceleration and speed. Bottom line is try to make your opponent fight you way and not the other way around.

[manfrez01]

LMAO !

 

@AMRAAM_Missiles : In 1 on 1, try to use the superior thrust-to-weight ratio of the Eagle. Try to drag the Flanker up into a spiral and wait for the right moment to go vertical, you'll end up on its 6 most of the time. This is one of the most popular tactics used by Eagle drivers against the Su-27.

 

In many vs many, I'd recommend hit and run tactics, use the F-15's superior acceleration and speed. Bottom line is try to make your opponent fight you way and not the other way around.

It is quite true that in theory.

But for example, in an environment like FC, ​​would be skeptical, would certainly unusual to see an example like that.:book:

[FLANKERATOR]

It is quite true that in theory.

But for example, in an environment like FC, ​​would be skeptical, would certainly unusual to see an example like that.:book:

 

Hi Manfrez,

 

I was actually talking about FC specifically :)

I've lost so many dogfights against good F-15 drivers this way back in time.

It takes really a lot of training to become aware of that and pull out of the 2 circles upward spiral before it becomes too late. Greed will always play against you in a Flanker.

Edited August 17, 2012 by FLANKERATOR

[manfrez01]

^^I know, I am aware of your work and reputation friend.:detective_2:

[manfrez01]

According to your example flankerator, which is very true, it is easier to explain in this way, the pilot who makes the fewest mistakes is alive. For me, a machine is very important, but the pilot makes a difference, and also the SA.

[AMRAAM_Missiles]

The F-15C wasn't nerfed. It was adjusted to match its real performance. There was a mistake in the original 2.0 release FM of the F-15C that caused it to turn far far better below M0.6 than the real thing does.

This also tells me that you don't know how to fight an F-15 ... flying it at slow speed before you're established on the bandit's six and about to shoot him (as opposed to stuck in lag behind him) is the wrong way to fly this crate.

 

I fly the F-15 all the time, and I have a whole bunch of tacviews of me mowing down flankers in public gunzo servers. Those are the same flankler pilots who are killing you. There are only a few vPilots who can fly their plane very competitively (doesn't matter which plane) and skillfully.

 

I'd say 'draw your own conclusions' but really, Sir, your problem is that you lack knowledge and training, and this will always make you an easy target for a pilot of the same skill level who has a plane that turns better :D

 

I have been gone for quite awhile, probably 6 months without any flight hours. Probably i was wrong about that.

Basically, i don't have the feeling of flying the Eagle of 1.12B on FC 2.0 , not sure if that is my skill fading out through time, or basically, the FM of 2 games are different.

Just my opinion on that. Thanks for clearing that out.

 

@FLANKERATOR: I don't really get what ya mean. Do you have a trk file to show that movement?

[Cali]

I have been gone for quite awhile, probably 6 months without any flight hours. Probably i was wrong about that.

Basically, i don't have the feeling of flying the Eagle of 1.12B on FC 2.0 , not sure if that is my skill fading out through time, or basically, the FM of 2 games are different.

Just my opinion on that. Thanks for clearing that out.

 

@FLANKERATOR: I don't really get what ya mean. Do you have a trk file to show that movement?

 

Yes, the flight models were changed between the 2 patches. In FC2, the eagle was made to act closer like the real one. Also, if you took 6 months off your skills suck. I did the same thing and I sucked when I started flying FC2 again. I could be halfway good again if I played FC2 more, which isn't going to happen for another 8-9 months for sure.

[Arrowhead]

In multiplayer servers with full realism, when we eject our view should stay with the pilot and not immediately go to the external airport view. Only if the pilot dies should the view be taken away from the action.

[Pyroflash]

In multiplayer servers with full realism, when we eject our view should stay with the pilot and not immediately go to the external airport view. Only if the pilot dies should the view be taken away from the action.

 

In the new updates for DCS, and consequently, FC3, it does stay with the pilot after you eject, so you could say that the problem has already been fixed for future updates.

[GGTharos]

There is only one part of the envelope that is differenct from original FC2 release to the 1.2.1 patch, and that is right between M0.1->M0.5.

 

This is far below the eagle's combat speed, which says to me that you spend all your time fighting at slow speeds. There is no difference in the FM above M0.5.

 

6 months is a long time, so yes, your skills will rust, but at the same time it's entirely and easily possible that this is a skill you just never learned. Most people don't know anything other than 'pull the stick as far back as you can and turn'. If that's how you fight, you will always lose to a better-turning aircraft.

 

I have been gone for quite awhile, probably 6 months without any flight hours. Probably i was wrong about that.

Basically, i don't have the feeling of flying the Eagle of 1.12B on FC 2.0 , not sure if that is my skill fading out through time, or basically, the FM of 2 games are different.

[SgtPappy]

@FLANKERATOR: I don't really get what ya mean. Do you have a trk file to show that movement?

 

I would be interested in such a track as well.

 

When I fly Spitfires in Il-2, I notice that a similar climbing turn was effective against the better turning Zeroes. It's a LOT easier to make an enemy lose energy in a WWII combat sim though because of the low T/W ratios.

 

In FC2, I find it harder to just climb straight up and rope my opponent because my engines would flame out before my opponent stalled. I have, however, played online and I've spectated Flanker pilots doing the climbing spiral turn. The following plane tends to lose energy rapidly while the higher fighter simply pulls up and then drops down on the enemy like a tonne of bricks. I can see the faster F-15 using this to more effect since it has little to do with turning ability and more with energy retention. I'd like to master this soon too. In a gunzo fight, it's more exciting to watch your enemy struggle to fly below you than to turn all day until a shot opportunity presents itself...

 

EDIT: Unless you're in an A-10... then nothing is more fun than that :D

Edited August 17, 2012 by SgtPappy

[GGTharos]

The trick to the spiral climb (And indeed, most dogfighting) is to know your opponents energy state compared to your own. If you spiral climb up at M0.6 and he's enters the fight at M0.8, you're not going anywhere.

 

With an F-15 you can leave him behind if you're even on speed (you get more sustained climb than a flanker does), but the other detail is that he can't be so close that he can afford to just blow his speed on shooting you.

 

People lose dogfights because they make poor decisions, and they do the wrong thing, usually at the wrong time.

[FLANKERATOR]

@FLANKERATOR: I don't really get what ya mean. Do you have a trk file to show that movement?

 

Not exactly the tactic I've mentioned but you can see how the F-15 and Su-27 match against each-other. Both pilots are very good (RvE squadron).

Notice how the Flanker pilot practically never pulls below 550-600 km/h (corner speed) and how the Eagle driver tries to drag his opponent into vertical maneuvers.

The F-15 had the upper hand throughout the fight but ended up trapped in a low-speed rolling scissors.

 

Edited August 17, 2012 by FLANKERATOR

[SgtPappy]

Although if you're good, a rolling scissors might help, but you have to get that snapshot QUICK:

 

Looks like AMRAAM_Missiles and I have a lot to practise. But I've seen Il-2 pilots do great things in their 109's, Spitfires and P-51's simply because they had the acceleration and climb rate or speed to do it. Hey AMRAAM, since we're both learning, why not shoot me a PM if you want a gunzo duel?

[manfrez01]

@FLANKERATOR:^^Incredible video indeed.

May I say that only the flanker, 230 indicated low speed, only in the defensive-offensive way.

Note the minute 5:04, the pilot a good desicion.

I think the error f-15 was doubt, losing seconds and not climb more.

But it is a very particular case I think, as ever, a flanker or a f-15 would enter the battle alone. Which would be an interesting case to analyze too.

Edited August 17, 2012 by manfrez01

[GGTharos]

And this is what a furball looks like. Watch how the wingman keeps his speed while maneuvering and sticks with lead, covering him all the time.

 

Edited August 17, 2012 by GGTharos

[FLANKERATOR]

Although if you're good, a rolling scissors might help, but you have to get that snapshot QUICK:

 

CenterMass is the most aggressive F-15 pilot I've ever met...he was runner up at the last 1on1 BFM tournament (lost to Packman IIRC).

CM has no fear turning tight with a Flanker, although he is very capable of dragging you up to the edge of space if he wants to.

Su-27 will have the last word in slow turning fights for equally skilled pilots.

 

@Manfrez: Yes you're right, F-15 made the crucial mistake of entering the rolling scissors at low speed. Greed is very tricky to control sometimes :)

Edited August 17, 2012 by FLANKERATOR

[GGTharos]

No, his mistake was doing it wrong ... he left AB in for a second or two too long, and pushed himself in front of where he wanted to be. This type of fighting is that delicate. His next mistake was trying to exit the scissors. IN the vast majority of circumstances, you cannot exit scissors.

[SgtPappy]

...although he is very capable of dragging you up to the edge of space if he wants to.

 

I want to learn this... watch enemies belly over in failure and then dropping down on them from the heavens :devil:

[manfrez01]

I want to learn this... :devil:

+1:D

[GGTharos]

Pretty easy. Watch his entry to the merge, your radar tells you his speed/mach number right on the HUD. Be at 0.95 or better, and if he's less than you, pull the nose straight up smoothly. Watch if he does the same. If he does, this is exactly what you'll end up with.

 

Or if you need to lure him into a bad position but he's too smart to just pull up with you, 0.95, climbing spiral at a sustained speed. If he squirts some rounds at you, small jinks. Don't burn your speed on wild evasions.

 

If, on the other hand, you mess up and let him jump on your six at a good guns range, that's a good time for somewhat wilder jinks :D

 

I want to learn this... watch enemies belly over in failure and then dropping down on them from the heavens :devil:

[FLANKERATOR]

No, his mistake was doing it wrong ... he left AB in for a second or two too long, and pushed himself in front of where he wanted to be. This type of fighting is that delicate. His next mistake was trying to exit the scissors. IN the vast majority of circumstances, you cannot exit scissors.

 

I would of kept my speed, nosed up and kept the upper-hand. The Flanker driver was obviously playing his last cards and made a sort of last ditch maneuver hoping the Eagle to accept the scissors invitation.

 

I want to learn this... watch enemies belly over in failure and then dropping down on them from the heavens :devil:

You'd need a high resolution screen to keep sight of the target beneath you as you need to estimate its energy state. A smart opponent might anticipate your move and go up vertical instead of spiraling up in which case a reversal becomes handy... But the trick works most of the time :)

[GGTharos]

I guess this is mostly academic; are you talking from the Eagle driver's perspective? :)

The maneuver he performed can be perfectly executed and he just didn't do so, but you are right, there are many ways to fight that one.

 

I would of kept my speed, nosed up and kept the upper-hand. The Flanker driver was obviously playing his last cards and made a sort of last ditch maneuver hoping the Eagle to accept the scissors invitation.

[SgtPappy]

You'd need a high resolution screen to keep sight of the target beneath you as you need to estimate its energy state. A smart opponent might anticipate your move and go up vertical instead of spiraling up in which case a reversal becomes handy... But the trick works most of the time :)

 

Ideally, if survival is the name of the game, no one's going to die.

 

Of course if he goes straight up, an F-15 pilot can just stop spiralling and then make an escape to reset the fight. I don't know how well that would sit with the USAF DACT rules though lol.

[FLANKERATOR]

I guess this is mostly academic; are you talking from the Eagle driver's perspective? :)

The maneuver he performed can be perfectly executed and he just didn't do so, but you are right, there are many ways to fight that one.

 

Indeed :)

 

Ideally, if survival is the name of the game, no one's going to die.

 

Very true... this is what should happen if no one makes a gross mistake.

But the fight is so dynamic and is mentally/emotionally challenging that often someone ends up doing the unforgivable. I'm always amazed realizing how much self control it takes to dogfight on a simulator, let alone the real thing where pilots have to fight high G forces as well.