Ракеты в DCS

[FoxAlfa]

 

Are you referring to the AMRAAM or Sparrow?

 

Sparrow LOFT... silly me :music_whistling:

[BlackPixxel]

A while ago the Aim-120 got changed so that the target no longer gets a launch warning from the shooting aircraft even when fired in STT, which makes sense (Radar does not change to a SARH illumination mode).

 

Why has the same not been applied to R-77 yet? When MiG-29 or J-11 launch the R-77, their radar should not switch to DNP either, as there is no need to illuminate the target. So the launch of the R-77 should not cause the target to receive a launch warning from the launch aircraft, only when the R-77 activates its own seeker the target should get alerted.

[GGTharos]

A while ago the Aim-120 got changed so that the target no longer gets a launch warning from the shooting aircraft even when fired in STT, which makes sense (Radar does not change to a SARH illumination mode).

 

It does not make sense. The DL signal is inserted instead of the guidance waveform, and that's assuming this waveform isn't needed for ECCM or the WCS might do so 'just because' (eg, this additional signal was never removed for whatever reason)

[BlackPixxel]

So why is the Aim-120 launched in STT not giving a launch warning from the launch aircraft then in DCS?

 

Why should the russian radar turn on the target illumination (that is not used by the aircraft radar for tracking) when launching the R-77? The R-77 could not even use that for some kind of homing, as it operates in a higher band.

[GGTharos]

So why is the Aim-120 launched in STT not giving a launch warning from the launch aircraft then in DCS?

 

Why should the russian radar turn on the target illumination (that is not used by the aircraft radar for tracking) when launching the R-77? The R-77 could not even use that for some kind of homing, as it operates in a higher band.

 

Because it's a bug.

[BlackPixxel]

Could be, would be nice to have a statement from Chizh if this is intended or not.

[Chizh]

If so, then this is a bug.

[Кош]

Напомните если было, по какому признаку синяя СПО определяет пуск Р-27Р на дальность за пределами захвата головы с полетом по ИНС?

[Chizh]

Напомните если было, по какому признаку синяя СПО определяет пуск Р-27Р на дальность за пределами захвата головы с полетом по ИНС?

По переходу БРЛС в режим ДНП и сигналам радиокоррекции.

[Кош]

По переходу БРЛС в режим ДНП и сигналам радиокоррекции.

У вас же сейчас РЛС переходит в ДНП еще при пуске? При применении Р-24 ДНП включается на дальности работы ГСН, то есть пускается по ИНС без ДНП, а у Р-27Р аналогично, если дальность пуска ближе чем для радиокоррекции но дальше чем для работы ГСН.

 

[Chizh]

БРЛС Су-27 и МиГ-29 переходит в режим ДНП при пуске ракеты Р-27Р/ЭР.

[Кош]

БРЛС Су-27 и МиГ-29 переходит в режим ДНП при пуске ракеты Р-27Р/ЭР.

 

Это шаг назад по сравнению с Н003 в скрытности атаки из-за пределов дальности работы ГСН если так. Связано ли это с введением радиокореркции? ДНП включается независимо от того будет ли пуск коррекция>инс>голова или только лишь инс>голова?

[BlackPixxel]

БРЛС Су-27 и МиГ-29 переходит в режим ДНП при пуске ракеты Р-27Р/ЭР.

 

How does the RWR detect the switch to DNP when the missile is still further than 25 km from the target? The radar is not emitting the SARH homing signal before that range.

 

 

 

Это шаг назад по сравнению с Н003 в скрытности атаки из-за пределов дальности работы ГСН если так. Связано ли это с введением радиокореркции? ДНП включается независимо от того будет ли пуск коррекция>инс>голова или только лишь инс>голова?

 

The SARH homing signal for the R-27R/ER is only emitted when the missile is expected to be 25 km from its target.

[Кош]

 

How does the RWR detect the switch to DNP when the missile is still further than 25 km from the target?

 

This is exactly what I am trying to figure out. Against MiG-23 - not in any way, but the tradeoff is missile is blind and educatedguessing. I want to know does R-27 need DNP for radio correction. And why DNP with a closer R-24 style launches.

[Кош]

 

The radar is not emitting the SARH homing signal before that range.

Yes. Andrey states otherwise.

 

[Chizh]

 

How does the RWR detect the switch to DNP when the missile is still further than 25 km from the target? The radar is not emitting the SARH homing signal before that range.

Ты ошибаешься. Режим ДНП включается сразу при пуске ракеты.

 

 

The SARH homing signal for the R-27R/ER is only emitted when the missile is expected to be 25 km from its target.

Нет.

 

[BlackPixxel]

Yes. Andrey states otherwise.

 

I recommend Andrey to read "БОРТОВОЙ КОМПЛЕКС САМОЛЕТОВОЖДЕНИЯ, ПРИЦЕЛИВАНИЯ И УПРАВЛЕНИЯ ВООРУЖЕНИЕМ САМОЛЕТА МиГ-29Б" that he can find in the ED websites download section:

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.c...files/2378427/

[GGTharos]

Maybe this will help.

 

Suppose that 'X' is an STT signal and each _ is 10ns (nanoseconds) of nothing - no signal. Don't worry about the exact timing details, they're not important in this example. When the radar sends out its STT pulses, it looks like this:

 

X___X___X___X___X

 

Here's a signal with the missile launched with DL:

 

X_D_X_D_X_D_X

 

Here's a signal with the DL replaced by guidance signal, either because that launch was at short range or because the missile flight time has reached the predicted time for the missile to start homing:

X_H_X_H_X_H_X

 

Does this help explain how the RWR would detect the launch?

[BlackPixxel]

Good description, especially about it radio correction signal replacing the homing signal, because both use the same time slots. While Chizh is saying that the SARH illumination starts already with the launch of the missile.

Question is if the DL signal will be interpreted as such by a 1980's RWR.

 

Also, there is a third case: Launch between 25 km and 37,5 km.

There you will/may? still have X__X__X__X__X until the missile is estimated to be within 25 km from the target, the initial flight will be pure INS without radio correction updates.

[BBCRF]

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[GGTharos]

Good description, especially about it radio correction signal replacing the homing signal, because both use the same time slots. While Chizh is saying that the SARH illumination starts already with the launch of the missile.

Question is if the DL signal will be interpreted as such by a 1980's RWR.

 

Also, there is a third case: Launch between 25 km and 37,5 km.

There you will/may? still have X__X__X__X__X until the missile is estimated to be within 25 km from the target, the initial flight will be pure INS without radio correction updates.

 

Your first question is strictly an intelligence gathering thing. The missile can interpret it, the RWR shouldn't have any problems with it - it's not important that it is a DL or homing signal (or both), just that the signal was injected and it doesn't mean anything other than a launch, in our very simple example.

 

I don't know about your third case, it looks like a bad deal to me and I personally believe that there would be a timing overlap during the switch. Any gaps decrease Pk for reasons that we have discussed.

[Кош]

 

Здесь сказано про дальность РГС но не сказано есть ли подсвет до этой дальности.

[BlackPixxel]

 

Здесь сказано про дальность РГС но не сказано есть ли подсвет до этой дальности.

 

Here it is pretty clear:

 

 

The radio correction signal is send in the exact same time slots where the SARH illumination would take place during the semiactive homing stage.

So the radar can send either radio correction or homing to one missile, but not both. So for a long range launch there is definetly no target illumination, just radio correction.

 

The radar time diagram actually has time slots to support two missiles, it is always alternating between these two "channels".

So missile 1 can already be close to the target and supported by SARH illumination, while missile 2 was just launched and is still receiving radio correction signals.

 

Any additional launched missile will not receive radio correction, and just fly by pure INS until it receives the homing signal once the radar starts sending the homing pulses for missile 1 or 2.

[Chizh]

Да, при пуске третьей ракеты, радиокоррекция первой прекращается. Это известно.

 

[BlackPixxel]

Да, при пуске третьей ракеты, радиокоррекция первой прекращается. Это известно.

 

In the 27SK manual it is said that after the launch of 2 missiles the following ones will go for the target without radio correction, not that the radio correction for the first two missiles stops.