French Mirage 2000-5 crashed today

[Laurius]

Well, I don't know where this post should go... Either here or in the Military and Aviation News Thread v2.0. Please forgive me...

 

 

A French Mirage 2000-5 crashed today nearby Luxeuil-Les-Bains Air force Base(AFB 116) in France (Haute-Saône department), shortly after 10:00 AM this day in a wooden area.

It involved a Taïwanese pilot at the commands of a French AF Mirage 2000-5 who lost his life.

The victim was 37 years old and was an experimented pilot with over 1300 hours of flight on that plane, which the Taïwanese Air Force is equiped with, with at least 60 units.

He has been for two years in France within a cooperation agreement between both countries, in order to share their operational experiences. Accident is still under investigation as reported in the AFP notice.

 

 

Sorry, I can't provide you with a link in english written language, but only with the french one from Yahoo (in french) :

 

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/avion-chasse-sécrase-haute-saône-pilote-tué-135504052.html

 

PS : I must say that I'm completetly amazed that doing a search for this event on the AFP website (http://www.afp.com/) gives nothing at all (even in french) !! I don't often do this and probably will never do again since their website looks like cr:cry:p! Shame on them !! :mad:

[Pyroflash]

PS : I must say that I'm completetly amazed that doing a search for this event on the AFP website (http://www.afp.com/) gives nothing at all (even in french) !! I don't often do this and probably will never do again since their website looks like cr:cry:p! Shame on them !! :mad:

 

Yeah, it is like that is most countries though. In fact, living in the U.S. I am consistently amazed at the lack of data available to the public about aviation incidents. I suppose it is a little bit biased, but our NTSB has a complete database of required reportable aviation incidents from the last few decades, all, for the most part, available to the public. Why other countries don't do this, I have no idea. It is an absolutely invaluable tool for learning about and developing safe aviation transportation networks.

[Laurius]

Thank you for your reply Pyroflash, but aside from what you say and as it is an info from the AFP (an official information organism here in France), I would have thought this info would have been available in different languages, at least in english just for sharing with others who are from abroad. But no way. I just don't get it and I'm afraid we won't hear from this event even here in France.

The investigation will give its report, and we, the basic people, won't be informed about what caused this tragic accident. That's a real pitty for all the airwarfare enthousiats. Don't even mentioning all we don't even know about and that can be found on youtube after a certain amount of time after the event occured.

That said, it probably and surely needs some time before releasing infos about a given incident, even for NTSB, although the info can be biased somehow as you said. Remember flight AF 447... Definitive conclusions will never satisfy everyone

[Yskonyn]

I suspect the limited availability of those reports might have to do with protection of privacy laws (which certainly are not the same for each country) in combination with possible 'your eyes only information'.

 

Press coverage might also play a role here. Even with the facts it is quite common for the press to churn out sensational articles with few relevance or respect for actual facts.

 

I don't find it odd that these reports are not available to 'the general public'.

It sucks for us sim enthousiasts, but there are a lot of other people who would not see such a report in light of 'what we can learn from it' unfortunately.

 

Another aspect might be criminal procedures. There is a trend (at least here in Holland) where the question of who did it and what punishment does he or she suffer is more prevalent than 'what can we learn from it'.

That is a threat to the open mindedness and self-regulating and improving mentality the aviation sector is known for.

[Pyroflash]

Another aspect might be criminal procedures. There is a trend (at least here in Holland) where the question of who did it and what punishment does he or she suffer is more prevalent than 'what can we learn from it'.

That is a threat to the open mindedness and self-regulating and improving mentality the aviation sector is known for.

 

Ah, that makes sense. In the United States as well, pre-1970's NTSB, FAA, and Military investigation board officials had a nasty habit of asking "who and what" instead of "why and how". This led to blame being attributed rather quickly, however not much was actually learned from the incidents. It was all seen as either pilot or aircraft error. Very little blame was actually attributed to the correct sources until they stopped trying to lay the blame for a problem on a single party. As a result of this trend reversal in the 80's, the United States is one of the safest countries in the world (for aviation). Though admittedly the E.U. isn't all that terrible, so they must be doing something right, though the only experience I have with them is through ICAO and the CAA in the U.K.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Pyroflash

[Yskonyn]

As a result of this trend reversal in the 80's, the United States is one of the safest countries in the world (for aviation). Though admittedly the E.U. isn't all that terrible, so they must be doing something right, though the only experience I have with them is through ICAO and the CAA in the U.K.

 

:megalol: Well, we are on par with the US here in the EU, don't worry.

It's just sad to see this trend from general prosecutors. They threaten to destroy the exact thing that made aviation so much safer and pro-active over all those years with their mentality of needing to punish professionals because they made an error.

 

The fact remains that where there are people working, errors will be made. It's also a fact that if a pilot makes a serious error there is a lot more at stake than when the baker made a mistake.

But criminal charges against either one because of it is not a very good practise, IMO.

[Pyroflash]

:megalol: Well, we are on par with the US here in the EU, don't worry.

It's just sad to see this trend from general prosecutors. They threaten to destroy the exact thing that made aviation so much safer and pro-active over all those years with their mentality of needing to punish professionals because they made an error.

 

The fact remains that where there are people working, errors will be made. It's also a fact that if a pilot makes a serious error there is a lot more at stake than when the baker made a mistake.

But criminal charges against either one because of it is not a very good practise, IMO.

 

 

I was making a joke, the U.S., E.U., Austrailia, South Africa, South Korea, and Japan are all on relatively equal footing when it comes to the issue of commercial air transport. Though this is largely through the efforts of ICAO.

 

Really though, I agree. People make mistakes, and sometimes the mistake made wasn't a serious one, but results in serious problems. For example, a drunk pilot may not cause any mishaps, but on the same hand, a sober pilot may kill 30 people because of a failure to properly control his aircraft. Really, it should be the drunk pilot who didn't kill anyone who gets criminal charges, because he is knowingly putting other people at risk. However in the minds of the public, and in many cases the judicial system as well, the sober pilot is more guilty because he was the one who actually caused the damage, albeit completely by accident. In the U.S., because prosecutors must present a minimum level of evidence at a grand jury before a trial can be convened, basically nothing can be done without the NTSB first conducting a full investigation as to why the airplane crashed. And because the NTSB is not involved in making any laws, or any other part of the judicial system, there is no reason for them to be biased and present unsubstantial evidence of a crime for the sake of convicting someone. In this way, the system balances itself out rather nicely.

[Yskonyn]

Well said. Exactly my point of view.

[marcos]

I was making a joke, the U.S., E.U., Austrailia, South Africa, South Korea, and Japan are all on relatively equal footing when it comes to the issue of commercial air transport. Though this is largely through the efforts of ICAO.

 

Really though, I agree. People make mistakes, and sometimes the mistake made wasn't a serious one, but results in serious problems. For example, a drunk pilot may not cause any mishaps, but on the same hand, a sober pilot may kill 30 people because of a failure to properly control his aircraft. Really, it should be the drunk pilot who didn't kill anyone who gets criminal charges, because he is knowingly putting other people at risk. However in the minds of the public, and in many cases the judicial system as well, the sober pilot is more guilty because he was the one who actually caused the damage, albeit completely by accident. In the U.S., because prosecutors must present a minimum level of evidence at a grand jury before a trial can be convened, basically nothing can be done without the NTSB first conducting a full investigation as to why the airplane crashed. And because the NTSB is not involved in making any laws, or any other part of the judicial system, there is no reason for them to be biased and present unsubstantial evidence of a crime for the sake of convicting someone. In this way, the system balances itself out rather nicely.

Surely the recommendation put forward should be that the sober pilots start drinking to improve safety.

[Laurius]

Really interesting discussion going on here. Thanks to all of you.

 

I like very much how NTSB works, especially as can be seen on the TV serie "MayDay".

 

Regarding AF 447 report issued by our NTSB equivalent here in France (BEA), it's clear that the conclusions didn't pleased everyone, in particular the crew members' families. Indeed crew apparently misunderstood or misinterpreted the real situation they were in because of several inconsistant warnings from the plane, leading the a fatal chain reaction of actions.

 

Drunk pilots seem also not so rare :

http://www.news.com.au/national/qantas-investigating-pilot-allegedly-drunk-on-flight-bound-for-brisbane/story-fndo4ckr-1226443680437

 

Anyway, regarding the topic of this thread, here are some updated news from a local newspaper and a french TV chanel (after Google translation...). Apparently, pilot sacrificed himself to avoid crash on houses. May he rest in peace and be honored as he deserves

 

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=fr&langpair=fr%7Cen&u=http://www.lepays.fr/actualite/2012/10/04/un-pilote-de-mirage-2000-5-se-sacrifie-pour-eviter-de-tomber-sur-le-village

 

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=fr&langpair=fr%7Cen&u=http://franche-comte.france3.fr/2012/10/03/crash-de-froideconche-le-mirage-2000-5-appartenait-l-escadron-cigogne-99717.html