Resource management system - questions

[Grimes]

Should work, at least how I interpreted how you described it.

[chromium]

Thanks, then I'll try. ATM I'm testing about how AI aircrafts drain resources when are spawned (late activation vs uncontrolled), as for another purpose it could be the best if any airplane in the scenery could be already spawned at mission start instead of being lately activated.

[Flagrum]

What do you want to archieve with such a setup?

 

Imo the ressource system is - sadly - quite pointless without some sort of dynamic campaign. I mean, who cares if you produce 3 or 4 tanks in the time a typical mission lasts? Or if there are 20 or 22 Mavericks available at the airport? The ressource system would make only sense if it is used in a larger scale, i.e. a dynamic campaign.

 

But maybe that's just me and I am just too negative?

[Grimes]

You are being too negative. Right now the resource system is great for two things:

 

1. Denying weapons to players. Ok sure 20 Mavericks are remaining, what if that is all you have over the course of a mission for all players to share? That changes the dynamic of a scenario. I personally like to use resources to deny a weapon from being an option. Before the resource system the only way we could do that was to spawn the player already in the air and to me, that isn't that fun.

 

2. As competitive objectives. In a TvT mission it would be advantageous to take out the enemies resources to deny them access to specific aircraft types or weapons.

[L0op8ack]

That's what I'm looking for, for dynamic compaigns.

 

1) dynamic task schedule (CAP/Intercept/CAS/SEAD/GAI...).

This can be done by SSE scripting now, unfortunately not for clients so far.

 

2) resource production/transport/availability logic chain

unlimited planes and weapons seems too stupid

 

3) plane/weapon factory operating level control

for example, by electric

 

The resource system in ver1.2.5, is a something like ME-hardcoded resource restriction, can not be touched or controled dynamicly.

Edited August 12, 2013 by L0op8ack

[Grimes]

L0op8ack this is not the dynamic campaign wishlist thread. This thread is for questions with the current resource system.

[Flagrum]

You are being too negative. Right now the resource system is great for two things:

 

1. Denying weapons to players. Ok sure 20 Mavericks are remaining, what if that is all you have over the course of a mission for all players to share? That changes the dynamic of a scenario. I personally like to use resources to deny a weapon from being an option. Before the resource system the only way we could do that was to spawn the player already in the air and to me, that isn't that fun.

 

2. As competitive objectives. In a TvT mission it would be advantageous to take out the enemies resources to deny them access to specific aircraft types or weapons.

Denying weapons to players? Yes, that is a useful feature and I won't complain about that. But the ressource system is meant to be more ... and actually is more already when we look at the delivery routes and the network one can define. But this can't be really fully exploited by a mission designer as of now.

 

I am not complaining that we have this ressource system. But in my opinion it is just prematurely implemented.

 

edit:

L0op8ack this is not the dynamic campaign wishlist thread. This thread is for questions with the current resource system.

Allright, this applies to me as well. :music_whistling: Sorry for taking the thread off-topic - I will shut up here now! :D

Edited August 12, 2013 by Flagrum

[Grimes]

I'd rather have a simple resource system in place with the goal to expand upon it later, than to wait a long time while not having one. The resource system will be gradually improved, and by all means post your suggestions on it, just in the wishlist thread/mission editor wishlist/DC wishlist.

 

The reason I brought it up is that ED know people want a DC and pretty much most simulation related topics could be linked to the DC. Thus bringing up a DC in a given thread may incredibly off-topic, as it is the case here. To me, its about as off topic as going into that Su-27 AFM thread and saying, "You know whats cooler than doing a cobra? Doing a Cobra in a DC." Followed by a list of why doing a cobra in a DC is better than doing a cobra in any other instance. And now I am off topic. :megalol:

[chromium]

But this can't be really fully exploited by a mission designer as of now

 

partially wrong :), in the original post I said "to be ideally used in a multiple days standing mission". Also, in our group we made sequential mission campaign. At any mission end, is quiet easy to update the original files with structure and dead groups or significantly changed group positions. ATM you can simply track what resource production has been destroyed (effectively altering the supply chain) or, with a few more effort, what has been consumed in the major warehouse (where everything is pivoting to get to much smaller local deposit).

 

My suggestion, as said, is to implement two things:

 

1. ability to track resource quantity during the mission;

2. ability to trigger a resource reload as trigger actions (and by script) and therefore an option to do not allow the automatic simulated resupply;

 

But also I would add those this to the wish list:

 

3. ability to group structure and warehouses as we can do with units in groups and consequently template building.

Edited August 12, 2013 by chromium

[chromium]

Actually I don't understand much well how the RMS distribute fuel to planes. I made this test: made available only 6 tons of fuel to Kutaisi, than I Activate (uncontrolled) and subsequently made active (AI TASK -> start) 5 F-15 each one with 5 tons of fuel

 

Each F-15 will be activate once every 2 min (the first at 60 sec), and every 60 sec after activation the F-15 will start RAMP procedures.

 

To control the situation, I put a single Su-25T with 0 kg of fuel, And I try to refuel.

 

At the mission start, the refuel is unable. After the first F.15 is activate, I'm able to ask 100% fuel but as expected I can carry at most 1000 kg... and this is ok

 

The surprise come when I see the other sequential F15 able to activate, RAMP and even fly to Sukhumi. Aren't they supposed to do not star cause of the lack of fuel?

[Flagrum]

Actually I don't understand much well how the RMS distribute fuel to planes. I made this test: made available only 6 tons of fuel to Kutaisi, than I Activate (uncontrolled) and subsequently made active (AI TASK -> start) 5 F-15 each one with 5 tons of fuel

 

Each F-15 will be activate once every 2 min (the first at 60 sec), and every 60 sec after activation the F-15 will start RAMP procedures.

 

To control the situation, I put a single Su-25T with 0 kg of fuel, And I try to refuel.

 

At the mission start, the refuel is unable. After the first F.15 is activate, I'm able to ask 100% fuel but as expected I can carry at most 1000 kg... and this is ok

 

The surprise come when I see the other sequential F15 able to activate, RAMP and even fly to Sukhumi. Aren't they supposed to do not star cause of the lack of fuel?

Perhaps only RE-fuelling would be affected as aircraft placed by the ME are already having their tanks full with what was set in the ME?

[Grimes]

Whenever the aircraft spawns it consumes the resources for aircraft, weapons, and fuel. Uncontrolled aircraft ARE spawned into the mission and consume resources. Late activated aircraft consume the resources once they spawn in.

 

You should be able to click on the airbase on the map in the F10 menu and then bring up the air bases current resources by clicking the little icon to the right of the airbase info display. It'll show available fuel, aircraft, and weapons.

[chromium]

I found that maybe I'm much more clever at 3 a.m. than 3 p.m. The reason cause all F-15 started was related to the fact that in my test loadout (4-A120C) I left a fuel tank of 610 gals, and they can use that fuel to start and reach destination.

 

So, what I found. In the test mission (attached) the first F15 is the only one able to drain 5000 kg of fuel from Kobuleti, that have a limit of 6 tons. The flight to destination (Sukhumi) takes about 1100 kg (fuel added to Sukhumi: 3910,83 kg).

 

The other F15 spawns all, but only the first of them initiate the start-up (the first one is the only other that can use fuel, the remaining 1000 kg). Then he took off, and immediately after that land on Kobuleti instead heading to Sukhumi. In the meantime, the other 3 F-15 spawned, but no-one of them initiate the start-up (they do not have fuel available).

 

The outcome are those, at the moment:

 

1. IA can reject flight if they understand that they lack of fuel to reach a destination and make an immediate RTB (to be tested MUCH more).

2. IA spawn, but don't start and remain at RAMP cause they lack of fuel... but they still drain weapons if available!

3. AI flights that take of and then land, disappear after some minutes. the "stuck" flight that do not ramp, don't disappear (waited till 5 simulated hours...)

4. External fuel tanks come with fuel! so having "n" fuel tanks available in the storage means indirectly having fuel, that merely escape from the resupply net previously designed.

test RMS.miz

Edited August 13, 2013 by chromium

[L0op8ack]

I found that maybe I'm much more clever at 3 a.m. than 3 p.m. The reason cause all F-15 started was related to the fact that in my test loadout (4-A120C) I left a fuel tank of 610 gals, and they can use that fuel to start and reach destination.

 

So, what I found. In the test mission (attached) the first F15 is the only one able to drain 5000 kg of fuel from Kobuleti, that have a limit of 6 tons. The flight to destination (Sukhumi) takes about 1100 kg (fuel added to Sukhumi: 3910,83 kg).

 

The other F15 spawns all, but only the first of them initiate the start-up (the first one is the only other that can use fuel, the remaining 1000 kg). Then he took off, and immediately after that land on Kobuleti instead heading to Sukhumi. In the meantime, the other 3 F-15 spawned, but no-one of them initiate the start-up (they do not have fuel available).

 

The outcome are those, at the moment:

 

1. IA can reject flight if they understand that they lack of fuel to reach a destination and make an immediate RTB (to be tested MUCH more).

2. IA spawn, but don't start and remain at RAMP cause they lack of fuel... but they still drain weapons if available!

3. AI flights that take of and then land, disappear after some minutes. the "stuck" flight that do not ramp, don't disappear (waited till 5 simulated hours...)

4. External fuel tanks come with fuel! so having "n" fuel tanks available in the storage means indirectly having fuel, that merely escape from the resupply net previously designed.

 

AI which make a success landing and park, will disppear in 30 minitues.

[VapoR]

Question: If you have linked warehouses with "convoys" that go between them, will there be an actual convoy generated in game?

[Grimes]

No it doesn't, but I believe that is part of the overall plan of the resource system.

[VapoR]

Well that sucks. But good that it's in the future plans!

[VapoR]

Ok another question: How does resupply for ships work? Like for instance can you resupply the Kuznetsov either from another ship or from a land-based (harbor) warehouse?

[chromium]

Sadly VapoR I can't answer your question at the moment.

 

I'm here to report* one strange thing: usually with "copy & paste" commands CTRL-C and CTRL-V you're able to copy not only the group-flight etc, but also any waypoints, advanced command and triggered action whithin the copied group. This do not apply to warehouses: with copy and paste you do not carry settings as size, periodicity, operation level and quantities: the copied warehouse have the default "all infinite" setup.

 

as such for my RMS implementation testbed I will simplify with one tank warehouse per structure, that will be set as the total of the previewed tanks.

 

 

*I know that it's a WIP feature, so I don't think that this could be indended as bug, and so I don't think it's correct to report it as such.

[Grimes]

Ships are probably resupplied via the virtual convoys.

 

Chromium, the warehouse stuff is actually located in another file within the miz and more or less only references the object name as the location of the warehouse. So when you copy paste it, the resource data isn't copied. As a feature, it should probably be added.

[chromium]

So when you copy paste it, the resource data isn't copied. As a feature, it should probably be added.

 

But this makes me think that I may create copies of a predefined warehouse via lua in the warehouse.lua file... uhm.... I have to check this possibility :)

 

thanks!