Kh-58 and 25MPU

[Manny]

Has anyone been able to engage an EWR with these weapons and has anyone actually achieved 100KM range?

[Yellonet]

Edited

 

It is possible to detect and lock on an EWR station with the passive radar pod but you don't get a launch authorization.

Kill off the SAM radars and then go in with rockets or bombs for the EWR.

 

For the expert: I think the waves are 10 meters (30 MHz) at most I think. Shouldn't it be possible to launch towards the emitter anyway but with a lesser degree of accuracy?

[Krendel]

For the expert: I think the waves are 10 meters (30 MHz) at most I think and shouldn't it be possible to lock up the emitter anyway but with a lesser degree of accuracy?

It's impossible.You will need an antena with comparable size

[Yellonet]

It's impossible.You will need an antena with comparable size

Why? The passive radar pod can apparently detect where the signal is coming from so why can't you launch the missile towards the source?

[Krendel]

Why? The passive radar pod can apparently detect where the signal is coming from so why can't you launch the missile towards the source?

Because it's phisically impossible to determine the direction of the emition when wavelength is larger then the detector

[Yellonet]

Because it's phisically impossible to determine the direction of the emition when wavelength is larger then the detector

But how come the pod can do it?

[britgliderpilot]

But how come the pod can do it?

 

Because . . . . . . oh.

 

Erm, good question!

[GGTharos]

Yep, you could launch with reduced accuracy.

 

Very, VERY reduced ... due to the wavelength the angular resolution becomes extremely coarse, and you essentially end up hitting squat.

 

Because wavelength isn't modelled in LOMAC, you simply don't get to waste the weapon attacking such a target ;)

[Yellonet]

Yep, you could launch with reduced accuracy.

 

Very, VERY reduced ... due to the wavelength the angular resolution becomes extremely coarse, and you essentially end up hitting squat.

 

Because wavelength isn't modelled in LOMAC, you simply don't get to waste the weapon attacking such a target ;)

So how far from target would you get with maximum bad luck? ;) And are there weapons designed to take out large radars? Maybe something with airburst and lots of shrapnel filling...

[GGTharos]

I don't think range is an issue, it's the seeker's angular resolution with respect to that target. It's very difficult to make an analogy of what this would be like since I don't think we can really experience a similar thing.

 

In essence, this weapon will eaily see the target where it's not. What you really want is potentially something that will fly in the general direction of the target, then attack it with onboard IR or radar.

 

Or, you just bomb the thing to oblivion.

[Yellonet]

I don't think range is an issue, it's the seeker's angular resolution with respect to that target. It's very difficult to make an analogy of what this would be like since I don't think we can really experience a similar thing.

 

In essence, this weapon will eaily see the target where it's not. What you really want is potentially something that will fly in the general direction of the target, then attack it with onboard IR or radar.

 

Or, you just bomb the thing to oblivion.

So the weapon can't even tell that the target is within a certain area?

[GGTharos]

It can tell it's within a certain direction - the problem is that this direction can be quite wide ... perhaps you're familiar with the concept of a beam-riding missile.

 

Think of the ARM as a beam rider riding inside a 1km diameter beam. It's capable of staying 'inside' it, but it's not particularely likely to actually hit anything at the end of its flight.

[Yellonet]

It can tell it's within a certain direction - the problem is that this direction can be quite wide ... perhaps you're familiar with the concept of a beam-riding missile.

 

Think of the ARM as a beam rider riding inside a 1km diameter beam. It's capable of staying 'inside' it, but it's not particularely likely to actually hit anything at the end of its flight.

Ok... so if there is a small radar with a shorter wavelenght the ARM will start with a large beam but the closer it gets the smaller the beam becomes, but with a too large wavelenght the beam isn't shrinking? I'm probably not getting this...

[Gazehound]

Ok... so if there is a small radar with a shorter wavelenght the ARM will start with a large beam but the closer it gets the smaller the beam becomes, but with a too large wavelenght the beam isn't shrinking? I'm probably not getting this...

 

Imagine dropping a fist sized rock down a well and hoping to crush the egg thats lying at the bottom somewhere.

[Yellonet]

Imagine dropping a fist sized rock down a well and hoping to crush the egg thats lying at the bottom somewhere.

As long as the rock is explosive it should work ;)

But it all depends on a lot of things, what is the diameter of the well, how big is the target and so on.

 

What accuracy could you expect with a Kh-58 against a target sending at 30 MHz?

Within 10 meters? 100? 1000?

Surely there must be a way of calculating this.

[GGTharos]

There probably is, and the best person to tell you right now is probably SK.

 

It may be possible that, due to the limitations of antenna vs wavelength your accuracy is well, nothing (ie. you could be seeing the same thing almost no matter which way you turned)

 

 

Or it may be 30-50m only.

[GGTharos]

Maybe the accuracy isn't too bad:

 

http://www.house.gov/pitts/initiatives/ew/022001-CRS-EW.pdf

 

Page 10, the excerpt.

 

Mind you that 'early warning radar' may have just be an SA-6 SR (But it could have also been a Giraffe)

[Yellonet]

Maybe the accuracy isn't too bad:

 

http://www.house.gov/pitts/initiatives/ew/022001-CRS-EW.pdf

 

Page 10, the excerpt.

 

Mind you that 'early warning radar' may have just be an SA-6 SR (But it could have also been a Giraffe)

Hmm.... they had difficulty locating the EWR station... it wasn't until they got a tip that they could locate it and take it out... in LockOn we can locate their positions very easily, realistic or not?

[Manny]

Because it's phisically impossible to determine the direction of the emition when wavelength is larger then the detector

 

Agreed since the wavelength of the emitter is kms in length and the missile cna only home of short wavelength. bummer

[Manny]

So how far from target would you get with maximum bad luck? ;) And are there weapons designed to take out large radars? Maybe something with airburst and lots of shrapnel filling...

 

Taking out the radar in the 25T is a simp[le matter of turning on the optical scope once the pod has locked onto the emitter source. turn off the pod and let fly a laser or tv guided weapon with no need to point the optical sight since it is already targetting the station.

[Yellonet]

Agreed since the wavelength of the emitter is kms in length and the missile cna only home of short wavelength. bummer

The encyclopedia says that the EWR stations use 30-300 MHz, i.e. 10-1 (1-10) meter waves.

[Yellonet]

Taking out the radar in the 25T is a simp[le matter of turning on the optical scope once the pod has locked onto the emitter source. turn off the pod and let fly a laser or tv guided weapon with no need to point the optical sight since it is already targetting the station.

Yes, but is it correct that the passive radar pod can pinpoint the EWR exactly while the ARM cannot?

[Guest ruggbutt]

Because it's phisically impossible to determine the direction of the emition when wavelength is larger then the detector

You're partially correct. The antenna needs to be "matched" to the wavelength that you're trying to receive, but there are plenty of ways around physical size of the antenna itself. I used to have a Kenwood dual band HAM radio, it was a handheld. The antenna was about 4.5 inches long. I could transmit and receive on the 2 meter band with that short little antenna. The quick and dirty explanation (and the fact that I haven't done it in so long that I'm rusty) is that you can wrap 2 meters of wire around the shaft of that antenna. I'm far from being a radio guru, but that's just basic radio tech.

[GGTharos]

Hmm.... they had difficulty locating the EWR station... it wasn't until they got a tip that they could locate it and take it out... in LockOn we can locate their positions very easily, realistic or not?

 

This is because they'd turn it on for 2-3 sweeps, then turn it off and move it - all in forest roads, too, so you couldn't see the vehicles. They were also properly camouflaged.

[Yellonet]

This is because they'd turn it on for 2-3 sweeps, then turn it off and move it - all in forest roads, too, so you couldn't see the vehicles. They were also properly camouflaged.

So it's not realistic in LockOn then?