Using SAMS

[lennycutler]

I know I can't control SAM batteries like Hawk and Patriot, but how can I ensure that they engage targets. In my test missions, they just sit there and do nothing while an enemy bomber flies by.

[RagnarDa]

You have to set them to Red-state and wait for something like 5 minutes for their systems to warm up.

[Geskes]

Also, you need all required elements for each system in the same group, ie radar + launchers.

[lennycutler]

Still No Joy

 

Yes, I tried that and my Hawk Battery did nothing. I have attached the mission file, perhaps there is something else I need to do.

T-90 target Patriot Battery.miz

[Dusty Rhodes]

Another consideration is the direction you have your radars facing. Both HAWK and Patriot have directional radars, meaning they have to be pointed in the right direction to detect targets. Just a thought to consider.

[Geskes]

Your radar and launcher are not in the same group. Every unit you have in the mission is a seperate group (except for the two groups with three vulcans in it). To make it work all of the batteries elements must be in the same group. Do it like you have done with the vulcan groups.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Geskes

[lennycutler]

Thanks, I will give it a go.

[lennycutler]

Yes, I have it now...trick is to create the group, populate it with at least one part of the SAM battery....then replace each component to make sure you have the right number of launchers, radar etc...and with the Patriot, you may have to position the AN 53 with its motor facing away from the target area.

[snak]

Lenny can you repost that mission so i can take a look

Paul

[lennycutler]

Updated mission

 

see attached....this is not currently set up for battle field commander...but you can easily do that....

 

It now seems to work well....getting SAMs to engage etc.

Test Hawk Battery Engagement.miz

[snak]

thanks ill check it out

[Evil.Bonsai]

What's neat is you can set up a group with required launchers and control systems, place the launchers miles apart, and away from control/radar vehicle, and they still work just fine (at least they did when I tried it back in 1.1.1.1). Can't remember which (osa or kub?), but one of those has a launch vehicle and a radar vehicle (need both in a group). I put radar in center and placed two launch vehicles far enough north and south for their zones to just overlap the center, and as long as I was in the radar vehicles engagement zone, whichever launch vehicle I was closest to would launch.

 

For all the systems with multiple entries (like patriot), you need to have a specific set of vehicles. If I were at home, I could look and tell you which ones. Some units are self-contained, some need a launcher and tracking radar. Some have launcher, control vehicle, early warning radar, search radar. I tested these all out once, a while ago, but things might have changed since then.

 

Edit: did some testing with s300 system; if the track radar was more than 5nm from the launchers, the missiles went ballistic and exploded after launch. Going to try this some more, as I'm curious to see what each system can do.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Evil.Bonsai

[snak]

I added a few other aircraft and have notice there are a fair amount of the samst seem to destroy themselves just after launch for no reason, this is just after they launch.

 

 

its not because the original target is destroyed as other sams are fired from the same location and then continue to there target

 

Why do they self destruct so early?

 

Same issue as you EB lol

[Evil.Bonsai]

I added a few other aircraft and have notice there are a fair amount of the samst seem to destroy themselves just after launch for no reason, this is just after they launch.

 

 

its not because the original target is destroyed as other sams are fired from the same location and then continue to there target

 

Why do they self destruct so early?

 

Same issue as you EB lol

 

Hmm...dunno. I could cause them to go ballistic or track and destroy a target every time by moving the tracking radar farther/closer.

[snak]

Is it possible to have 2 tracking radars for one system?

[MaverickF22]

Another consideration is the direction you have your radars facing. Both HAWK and Patriot have directional radars, meaning they have to be pointed in the right direction to detect targets. Just a thought to consider.

 

The radar searches and scans in all directions, so you won't need to point it in a specific direction in order to find targets! Why is it a radar for?!

[Jona33]

The radar searches and scans in all directions, so you won't need to point it in a specific direction in order to find targets! Why is it a radar for?!

 

A patriot radar doesn't. The dish is fixed so it covers a 120 degree area. To have full 360 degree coverage you would need three radars.

[Evil.Bonsai]

A patriot radar doesn't. The dish is fixed so it covers a 120 degree area. To have full 360 degree coverage you would need three radars.

 

Are you talking about real-life or in the SIM? I've only ever used one radar and it works for all directions. The search radar picks up the target, the track radar turns to face the target, then missiles launch.

[blahdy]

Are you talking about real-life or in the SIM? I've only ever used one radar and it works for all directions. The search radar picks up the target, the track radar turns to face the target, then missiles launch.

 

Both are correct. The in-game Patriot radar will only track/search in 110 degrees as noted; however, the game AI actually queues the Patriot radar to turn the other way around, if there is an enemy coming in the other direction, allowing the radar to acquire & track that target by slewing its turret.

 

Likewise, if you have two enemies coming in, each from different direction outside of 110 deg field of view, then Patriot will only engage the first target, while the other one would not be detected until the first target has been prosecuted.

[Evil.Bonsai]

Both are correct. The in-game Patriot radar will only track/search in 110 degrees as noted; however, the game AI actually queues the Patriot radar to turn the other way around, if there is an enemy coming in the other direction, allowing the radar to acquire & track that target by slewing its turret.

 

Likewise, if you have two enemies coming in, each from different direction outside of 110 deg field of view, then Patriot will only engage the first target, while the other one would not be detected until the first target has been prosecuted.

 

Really? I am going to try this out. I've seen the patriots engage a few targets at same time, but they were always from similar direction.

 

Need to make a quick mission with three track radars and targets in opposite directions. :)

[blahdy]

Need to make a quick mission with three track radars and targets in opposite directions. :)

 

Yup. 110 degrees is a huge search volume, it's surprising to see how much stuff falls inside the radar search fan and that's probably the behavior you noticed.

 

Not sure how the AI interacts with more than 1 radar running in game, but in real life doctrine side of things, you have more than one fire unit defending an area. Each fire unit radar is assigned to cover a sector and designated search pattern. (i.e. radar #1 running TBM search, radar #2 in ABT search, radars #3-4 doing same in different azimuth; or radar #1 doing TBM search and other radars in EMCON silent, etc.)

 

So in a typical Patriot deployment scenario, you would have pretty much all azimuth sectors covered as you need; that, and Patriot missiles can turn backwards/maneuver accordingly after launch if the launcher was oriented in the wrong position.

[Mojeaux]

CA ...SA-13 will no longer lock up P-51. really..they use to! If this is a change..do you think this is a good idea? I can lock up most everything else "Aim-7 missile, SA-19 grissom missiles, SU-33, what ever.but not the P-51.. Just an observation.

[Evil.Bonsai]

Yup. 110 degrees is a huge search volume, it's surprising to see how much stuff falls inside the radar search fan and that's probably the behavior you noticed.

 

Not sure how the AI interacts with more than 1 radar running in game, but in real life doctrine side of things, you have more than one fire unit defending an area. Each fire unit radar is assigned to cover a sector and designated search pattern. (i.e. radar #1 running TBM search, radar #2 in ABT search, radars #3-4 doing same in different azimuth; or radar #1 doing TBM search and other radars in EMCON silent, etc.)

 

So in a typical Patriot deployment scenario, you would have pretty much all azimuth sectors covered as you need; that, and Patriot missiles can turn backwards/maneuver accordingly after launch if the launcher was oriented in the wrong position.

 

Unfortunately, in SIM, the radars will only lock up the highest threat.

 

2 radars in one system, both turned toward highest threat.

 

1 radar, 2 systems, both turned toward highest threat.

 

2 equal threats, turned to closest group.

 

Will only engage closest, highest threat until threat is eliminated, then will turn/engage 2nd threat.

[MaverickF22]

Unfortunately, in SIM, the radars will only lock up the highest threat.

 

2 radars in one system, both turned toward highest threat.

 

1 radar, 2 systems, both turned toward highest threat.

 

2 equal threats, turned to closest group.

 

Will only engage closest, highest threat until threat is eliminated, then will turn/engage 2nd threat.

 

 

Good thing to know..., so no matter how many patriot radars for a SAM group, at least for this one we know that this happens (we don't know about the S-300 or other radars yet), all the radars will turn (with their 110 deg coverage) against the area where the highest threat target exists, but why are there only 2 or 3 turrets (when you have 7 or 8 in a group) for example, being pointed towards that target to attack it, having the rest of the turrets in their normal position (not attacking)?

 

So is there a priority rule for the turrets too?

 

 

Have a good day!;)

[MaverickF22]

CA ...SA-13 will no longer lock up P-51. really..they use to! If this is a change..do you think this is a good idea? I can lock up most everything else "Aim-7 missile, SA-19 grissom missiles, SU-33, what ever.but not the P-51.. Just an observation.

 

SA-13 Gopher, similar to SA-9 (similar by the name STRELA10 (SA-13) and STRELA 9 (SA-9)), are using IR tracking to lock up a target (have no radar), and that's why the hot exhaust from a missile (Aim-7 as you took for example) can be locked, or from any other jet engined aircraft, while the much cooler exhaust from the P-51 and normally smaller (not TU-95 or something big with many prop engines) propeller engined planes, can't be easily locked with IR, although it is possible only when the P-51's engine exhaust gases reach a high enough temperature (if implemented in DCS) and so the IR tracking system can see it better, or if it's close enough to do so (who knows, maybe it will get a lock on the P-51, when it's less than 1km away).

 

This thing, with having a higher infra red signature if the exhaust gases from the engines are hotter, and lower signature when the exhaust temp drops, would be a unique and very necessary feature to simulate in DCS..., if this has to be a modern combat simulator, especially when simulating dogfights (yet not only) with infra red missiles in FC3, or when an infra-red (IR) SAM fires a missile at you, being much more able to escape that missile by throttling to idle and popping a burst of flares to break the IR tracking, but who knows, maybe it's been implemented, or let's hope...!

 

 

Good day!:thumbup: