Elvaron's A-10C Thread

[Elvaron]

Good evening,

 

I recently got into the hobby of pit building, and while I will eventually share my progress in this thread, first and foremost I have some questions, which I hope some can help me with?

 

First of all, thanks to the people here who so readily share their stuff to make it easier for others! I wouldn't even attempt to try this if you guys didn't break open the door for me and others!

 

I'm just getting started on the various panels, and my main concern is getting them done in proper quality, especially with the tools I have at the ready. An associate of mine has a metalworking company with CNC machines and such, where I can make the shapes and holes and whatnot, but he doesn't have the machinery for engraving and such. I'm also a programmer for a company that makes a specialized CAD software for it's parent company's profile processing machines (think window and door frames and such), which might mill small enough for the letters/lines. And I have another associate with a carpentry business who can make the cockpit's inner frames and whatnot, though that may be delayed due to apartment constraints :D

 

I'm basing my design off ReactorOne's amazing template. He has 3 layers for each panel, 1 faceplate that I'd be making out of metal I assume. Another layer with the same outer shape as the faceplate, I'm assuming this one would be the light plate? And a third one I would make out of metal again to hold the three together and mount the various switches and whatnot on. Please correct me if I'm wrong already.

 

Now to my current questions:

- How thick should each layer generally be?

- Based on Mike's website (I haven't gotten his book Building Recreational Flight Simulators yet, though I plan on getting it soon - just wish there were an ebook version), the engraving seems to go through the front plate into the light plate, I'm assuming so the lightplate has angled faces there that illuminate upward rather than just passing most of the light further sideways when light sources are mounted level with the lightplate?

- Won't I need even further openings to put the LEDs into the lightplate and wire it up? I doubt that prodding each through next to a switch is the best solution here?

- Any suggestions on how best to do the engraving in detail? Especially with letters there's the obvious problem that if these fully cut through the faceplate, floating parts would fall out (8,O,P,A,D,...). I need to use a temporary mounting block for the faceplate anyways so it can be strapped into my company's milling machine, should I just glue the light plate and the face plate together, screw them on a piece of wood and hope the glue holds the floating parts in place when the drill sets them free?

- Assuming the middle layer of the sandwich is some transparent plastic while the faceplate and backplate are metal, won't I have to somehow hide the middle layer on the sides? Unless I make the light plate impractically thin, you'd see it from any angle other than looking straight at it, and I imagine it would even transport light outside?

- As for materials, I found this as a translucent sheet: http://www.plexiglas-shop.com/DE/en/xt-allround-8ny276huqre/plexiglas-xt-allround-white-wn070-gt-cpy5buyyq79~p.html Living in germany, I have to find local variations of what people usually suggest. This any good?

 

I'm fully aware that a lot of this could be avoided by using acrylic layers and more or less print the black parts onto the faceplate, but I don't have a laser engraving machine or any such. What I do have is metal processing machines, so might aswell use what I have access to, right? Well, I can use the machines on plastics or otherwise I couldn't make the faceplate, but if possible I'd prefer metal faceplate :)

 

Note: Please be gentle with technical terms. Just because I know someone with a CNC machine doesn't mean I know the first thing about that kind of machinery. When in doubt, assume I know nothing whatsoever.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Elvaron

[metalnwood]

The CNC mill which you would often use for metals will do fine on the acrylic as well.

 

The idea is not to have a faceplate that you are cutting the letters out of so that the lighyplate will let light through You want a faceplate that will let light through but a surface that will not, you then engrave away that surface so the light is let through the lettering.

 

 

Be aware that reactor ones plans does not include any holes for putting in leds for backlighting. You will need to modify his plans before you start making the panels.

 

The traditional way with acrylic is really the way to go for hobby builds but you can have aluminium backplates if you want. The cnc mill your mate has will work just as well.

 

have a quick look at one of my threads here to get an idea of how they fit together

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=107377

[Elvaron]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

So basically I'd have one metal backplate, one transparent lightplate and one translucent faceplate with a black surface? I'm worried that our machines cant do freeforms with only so little depth into the material, since the surface would be half a millimeter or so? I'd like to avoid having to pay for laser engraving.

Next question is where to get translucent plastic with a black matte surface, in europe, at a reasonable price...

[metalnwood]

No idea where to get them from in europe and when you find out, I am not sure what the price would be. there are a couple companies.

 

Innovative plastics and rowmax both make a similar product. The rowmax product is called lasermax.

 

The other alternative is to take opal/white acrylic and paint it black and then engrave away the paint.

 

The cnc mill should be able to do it no problem. I havent seen a CNC mill with less accuracy than many of the homebuilt cnc routers that people are using to do the same job.

 

It would have to be a terrible machine that couldnt maintain at least 1/10mm and that is pretty bad as it is.

[tacno]

I think that the back layout in transparent plexiglass is good for one thing : back light transmission if the source of light is in the consoles.

But, plexigass is fragile, very fragile. Don't let fall down it.

If you think that you'll fixe your switches, lights, dimmers once and you'll fixe your panels on the console very few times, perhaps it'll work.

Ask to the pit-builders how many panels broken by a strong screwing...

I prefered the steel that is more robust. You can bore holes for back lights.

You have to be careful. I'm not.

[Elvaron]

Heh, good point. I am known to be clumsy at times. I'm just gonna have to start making a sample and see how it goes, learn from that. I made an inquiry to a laser engraving company for both the materials and the services, will see if my own time is more valuable than the extra money it would cost to just get the face plates laser engraved. I guess I wouldn't mind the cost as long as it's under 50€, won't be doing more than one at a time anyways. On top of which I'm gonna have to save up some cash on the upcoming salary for Deadman's knobs, just no way I'm going to reach his quality myself :)

[metalnwood]

I can tell you now, if you are looking to get all the panels done you wont find anyone who will talk to you for 50 euro.

[Elvaron]

I mean 50€ each ;) That's close to 2.000$ for all the panels...

Basically, I'd be getting them all from the same engraving shop then, just only 1-2 at the beginning to experiment with it. If the results are satisfying, I order the others. Don't think they can turn down such an order?

[metalnwood]

Sure, you would get them done for that price, shouldn't be near that much at all if you are giving them the plans and just expecting cut pieces back.

[Elvaron]

Yea, that's what I'm thinking aswell. Have the engraving shop do the fonts and lines to the point where the faceplate is either fully ready or just needs the outer shape and holes done.

Do the lightplate from clear acryl and the backplate from eloxed aluminium or such myself (my associate says the latter wouldn't be a problem to get), then just screw the three together and wire it up.

 

I'll have to think about the lighting though. Any hints on that part? How does that part actually work?

Looking at Mike's website he doesn't seem to seperate lightplate and faceplate, so I'm assuming I'll have to slightly carve into the clear acrylic aswell so some of the light gets redirected upwards? How do you judge how many LEDs you need?

[metalnwood]

I dont know Mikes methods offhand but if it is a single piece then its probably either clear or cloudy acrylic painted black with lettering engraved on the paint.

 

The lighting is then either behind that or placed within it, e.g. blind holes drilled in and leds placed within.

 

If you refer back to my thread I have three pieces, frontplate with engraving, lightplate and back plate.

 

the light plate and backplate both have holes in them in the same places for leds to sit inside the panel. The light plate is painted white although it is clear acrylic. This is to help the embedded leds have their light bounce around inside the panel to try and get an even illumination. I use a product called plexiglas endlighten to help the process but it can be expensive to get hold of. Clear acrylic will do but you may need more leds for even lighting.

 

Here is an illustration of a panel with the frontplate, backplate, lightplate as well as all of them overlaid.

 

You can see that the lightplate/backplate have a number of additional holes. They are for the leds and not visible from the front. When overlaid they are in red.

 

You need to either use trial and error to find out how many leds you need to light up the text or just put more holes than required and only enough leds to get the job done.

[Elvaron]

Aah, that's what the white paint is for. I was wondering how you would make the light bounce around. Thanks for the attachment, this has helped clear things up some more.

Hmm... I wonder if a sheet of tinfoil or such between the lightplate and backplate wouldn't work equally as well? Should help reflect a maximum amount of light from the LEDs and be at least as cheap as a can of white paint. And you can pretty much cut it into any shape you need, without having to spraypaint around my apartment :D

[metalnwood]

You still have to paint the sides anyway and white is what you want for the first coat.

 

I suppose you wouldnt have to paint the sides but I am not sure if it would have any impact. One thing the white is doing is diffusing the light to try and enable a even illumination of the panel. I am not sure that tinfoil would have the same effect but you can always give it a go.

 

I am sure it would work but not sure how well, could be perfect, could be a bit terrible depending on how you do the front plate.

[Elvaron]

Sample for the acrylic glass arrived today, glad I got that :) 3mm is insanely thin if I imagine I have to fit an LED in there, but from a stability standpoint it's supreme. Interestingly, the surface feels almost exactly like the TM Hotas Warthog Throttle unit's surface, sans the matte finish. I think we have a winner with Plexiglas XT!

I got a sample with 28% translucence. I'm using my external HDD's status light as an example, which itself is dimmed by an acyrlic sheet. I'm holding the printed version of the faceplate against it, printed on 190g paper. And I can read the text in an illuminated fashion. Awesome.

I'll get the 78% light transmission version ( http://www.plexiglas-shop.com/DE/en/xt-allround-8ny276huqre/plexiglas-xt-allround-white-wn670-gt-jdfyq0xfl4a~p.html ) to maximize translucence, but staying with the white material. Saves me the trouble of painting it white first :)

 

Any nays?

[metalnwood]

Getting white acrylic is not the same as painting it white.

 

When you get clear and paint it white you still have clear acrylic inside and that is what the light is bouncing around inside of. The light is kept inside as much as possible by its painted walls..

 

If you get acrylic that is already white it is prohibiting the led light from going through.

 

What it is good for is some level of diffusion but I doubt it is the optimal solution if you plan to mount the leds within drilled cavities in the lightplate.

 

So, how well it would work would depend on how you intend to design the lighting in the first place.

 

As I say, I have never tried it like you are suggesting so I dont know how well it will work compared to clear.

 

One thing of major benefit doing it that way and this could well outweigh what I just said is that the guy doing the engraving only has to worry about getting through the black layer and doesnt have to worry about not going through a white paint layer.

 

Even better, I would suggest that lasermax from one of my first posts. Its the best mothod for either laser or rotary engraving.

[Gadroc]

It's worth a try but I'd definitely do a more extensive test before committing to a lot of material. Most LED's have a narrow view angle... mean most of their light goes straight up. This means you don't want to place LED's directly behind text, or your will get "bright spots". In my experience about 3/16th air is the best spacing between LED and diffusion plate. I've switched to using 3/16 clear acrylic for that purpose to get more rigidity to the panel.

 

I would recommend actually doing a panel with the technique your want. Do a full layout of switches, text and backlights. Make sure the backlighting is even enough for you and the number of led is not to much. Half of making panels is making sure everything behind the panel fits. Just using the real layout with out thought will lead to problems unless you've committed to buying the exact same switches used in the real ones. That is darned pricy as many panels use very expensive switches which have large bats with tiny switch bodies (some of the locking ones are >$100 each).

 

You can find my latest panel design technique described in this post along with this diagram.

[Avilator]

Instead of using LEDs that shine their light straight up, you could try side-emitting LEDs like these: http://www.vishay.com/docs/83057/tlvg420.pdf

[Gadroc]

Those look interesting... only problem is finding a distributor for them. Looks like a lot of them require an order of 5000. Have to see about getting some samples and if they work I'd do a group buy with folks.

[metalnwood]

I see conrad in the UK are selling individually but the best discount (50%) is for getting 100+.

 

$25usd for $100

 

Edit, scratch that. They dont have green!

Edited June 11, 2013 by metalnwood

[Elvaron]

Thanks again for the feedback! Looks like I'd end up with the same principle Gadroc uses, lasermax -> clear acrylic -> aluminium. I'm glad you pointed out the overbright E. So no LEDs directly behind engraved stuff :)

 

Gadroc, if you end up getting a group order, count me in! I saw one offer for ~500$ for 5000 of them, so 50$ for 500 of them. Heck, I'd contribute 100$ if it helps getting us a group order together, but I really have no use for 1.000 of them. I guess I could plaster my entire apartment with them. Oh, the joys of an electricity bill :)