Crescendo Posted July 11, 2013 Posted July 11, 2013 (edited) Okay, well you've criticized my technique so I will return the favour since all of a sudden this is a thread about comparing the validity of personal opinions on a subject in which I'm quite certain few if any of us are experts in real life- (Deleted, but it did feel good to write it out) First of all, I wasn't criticising the technique you wrote about in post #11 (if that's the specific technique you're talking about), because when I started typing my reply you hadn't edited in that part of your post. In fact, I wasn't even criticising Viper's technique (beaming - which is a good tactic), only the statement that this technique would make you unhittable. I objected to that statement because it was an overly simple, black and white statement that glossed over the complexity and messiness of the issue. Things aren't as clearcut in unknown situations as they are in a simple mission editor scenario. That was my ONLY point. My point is that I essentially want to add an addendum to the quote "Do what I do in the vid and you'll never get hit". The addendum would be something to this effect: "but only in this specific circumstance against an Rmax launch, and assuming there are no other threats". When I said "that's a very mechanistic, gamey way of looking at things" I wasn't talking about your technique in post #11, I was referring to your statement about Viper's video that "it is, in fact, that simple". I agree that it is indeed that simple to avoid the SA-15 in Viper's video, but only in that specific mission editor scenario. It is not necessarily that simple when flying in a mission that you haven't designed yourself to do testing in. I am only saying that if the lesson starsky396 takes away from Viper's video is 'if I do this maneuver I will not be hit', then he is being done a disservice, because the subject of missile evasion is not simply limited to beaming an Rmax SAM launch, as you and I know. Yes, it is trivially true that starsky396 could avoid an SA-15 doing what he sees in that video, but it won't help deepen his understanding of how everything fits together. The OP came in with a question- we're ALL providing answers that accommodate our style of play. He can choose one. It may be yours but equally it may be mine, or crew's or vipers or any other contributor. You come in here and slam ours while insisting that yours is beyond reproach. THAT'S the part I'm dismissing.I don't think characterising me as "slamming" people is a fair intrepreation of my posts. My tone has been neutral and to the point, which may be viewed as standoffish depending on a person's expectations, but I have not slammed anyone. I also never claimed to be a subject matter expert, so I don't see what saying "few if any of us are experts in real life" has to do with anything. (Regarding the quote "(Deleted, but it did feel good to write it out)", I can only assume that this was some sort of refrain against me - otherwise what is it's purpose? That's a nice trick there, allowing you to take a 'jab' at me but making it look like you're the reasonable one who restrained himself. And I'm the one doing the slamming?) Further, I didn't provide a technique that I insisted was "beyond reproach", certainly not at the level of a video documentation of a specifc maneuver (beaming for example). What I did do was to take the black and white statement of "Do what I do in the vid and you'll never get hit" and make the point of saying "hang on, there is actually X, Y and Z" to consider. This XYZ What I find baffling about this exchange is that based upon your posts in this thread, you yourself are clearly an advocate of 'bigger picture' missile denial/evasion, i.e. the things you do before you even get to the missile dodging stage. Things like being aware of threats, minimum/maximum altitudes to fly, not overflying unsanitised areas, intrepreting RWR correctly, understanding how high alt SAMs and low alt SAMs can create kill zones, selecting non-energy-parasitic loadouts et al etc etc. It's clear from starsky396's track that he needs to take all of this onboard, not just to refer to a video that, while demonstrating a valid technique (against predicatable AI in a controlled environment), will notmake him unhittable in all 100% of circumstances unless he has an actual understanding of and appreciation for the many variables which you, myself, and others have talked about. In any case, I've said my piece and made my points, I won't hiijack this thread anymore. Edited July 11, 2013 by Crescendo . [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
starsky396 Posted July 11, 2013 Author Posted July 11, 2013 OK I watched your track and with all due respect, well, what did you expect? Your flying in that track is like jumping into a bath with your cat in your arms and then wondering why you got scratched, if you lucky, that is. Do it with my cat and you'll be disembowelled! You dodge the first launch somewhat less-than-elegantly and even more so the second. What are you then doing turning into the SAM, porpoising as you go? I think you eventually get tagged at 200 knots on a crest of one of your porpoises IIRC. To make matters worse, you closed to within 5km before the SAM finally got a hold of you. You cannot ask us how to avoid SAM systems and then fly like that. After all that, best advice that I can give you would be, the moment you get spiked (RWR Warning), is to turn tail and run. Once your RWR goes silent, turn back, search for him and shoot him from afar. Probably better to get your wingman to shoot him first though. The reason I flew close to it was to demonstrate how close I get to the vehicle when I am actually in the mission. Whenever I play, the minute I get close to the vehicle is when I get a blip on the radar.
ENO Posted July 11, 2013 Posted July 11, 2013 Is that blip on your "radar" a circle with an M in it? "ENO" Type in anger and you will make the greatest post you will ever regret. "Sweetest's" Military Aviation Art
starsky396 Posted July 11, 2013 Author Posted July 11, 2013 It normally says S6 with a diamond and half of a circle.
159th_Viper Posted July 11, 2013 Posted July 11, 2013 The reason I flew close to it was to demonstrate how close I get to the vehicle when I am actually in the mission. Whenever I play, the minute I get close to the vehicle is when I get a blip on the radar. He paints you long before launch. As soon as you get painted, extend. Always try and engage a SAM system head-on, preferably in a very shallow dive so you have a decent speed built up when the shite hits the fan. If you have to go defensive you then beam the system in a steeper dive, trading altitude for even more speed. Recover from the dive whilst staying on the 3/9 line and keep the system there - do not close - and you'll be safe. Easiest is to keep the system out of the immediate threat circle on your RWR - that way you're guaranteed to be safe. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......'
quyes Posted July 11, 2013 Posted July 11, 2013 Like Viper said, for the SA-19 (S6 on your RWR) just put it on your 3/9 line and it'll miss every time (under the current DCS Version). This is because the missile is radio controlled by the system operator using an optical guidance system and the operator has to pan the targeting system with your movement. If he's not actively "painting" you the missile will not go towards you. I've also been doing some testing and I can tell you that under the current version of DCS and with an Expert SA-19 battery, that from the time the S6 appears on your RWR you have 5nm (plus or minus 0.3nm) to the time that he actually fires the missile. At 300knots and heading straight at the SAM that gives you right around 1 minute to alter your course and avoid the launch.
starsky396 Posted July 12, 2013 Author Posted July 12, 2013 He paints you long before launch. As soon as you get painted, extend. Always try and engage a SAM system head-on, preferably in a very shallow dive so you have a decent speed built up when the shite hits the fan. If you have to go defensive you then beam the system in a steeper dive, trading altitude for even more speed. Recover from the dive whilst staying on the 3/9 line and keep the system there - do not close - and you'll be safe. Like Viper said, for the SA-19 (S6 on your RWR) just put it on your 3/9 line and it'll miss every time (under the current DCS Version). This is because the missile is radio controlled by the system operator using an optical guidance system and the operator has to pan the targeting system with your movement. If he's not actively "painting" you the missile will not go towards you. So I've gathered this up on what you guys have said. That my best chance of survival during engagement is HEAD ON, and my best chance of defeating the missile is to keep the missile on my 3/9 LINE. So are you saying that BEFORE I go defensive, I should keep the SAM on my 3/9 Line, yet when I DO go defensive, I go at him I go HEAD ON?
159th_Viper Posted July 12, 2013 Posted July 12, 2013 So are you saying that BEFORE I go defensive, I should keep the SAM on my 3/9 Line, yet when I DO go defensive, I go at him I go HEAD ON? No. Going defensive puts the SAM on your 3/9 line. If you have a go at him then do it head-on - cannot employ ordnance otherwise. That said, why would you want to have a go at him in any event: Just shoot the bastage from afar and get it over with. You see what happens when you want to get into a tangle with the SAM - you lose. Why try? Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......'
starsky396 Posted July 12, 2013 Author Posted July 12, 2013 No. Going defensive puts the SAM on your 3/9 line. If you have a go at him then do it head-on - cannot employ ordnance otherwise. That said, why would you want to have a go at him in any event: Just shoot the bastage from afar and get it over with. You see what happens when you want to get into a tangle with the SAM - you lose. Why try? OK, I understand, I will do that now.
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