flying a correct coordinated turn

[jay43]

Well, thanks for that constructive discussion. :-)

 

Let's se if I got things right.... when flying a coordinated turn, let's say a right turn, I would add right pedal to prevent slip (or release left pedal when flying with a lot of torque), afterwards pushing the cyclic right and forward and adding collective at the same time to stay at flight level. Would that be the correct way?

 

By the way, right now I am flying without rudder pedals, because my CH Pro Pedals annoying me. I hate that self-centering and the fact that you have to put your whole feet on it. After 10 minutes of flying it's getting very uncomfortable. I pendered about modifying them, but then I decided to build my own pedals and when doing so, I will also assemble some kind of collective.

 

I have nothing to do, anyway :-)

I'm eager to see how flying "feels" with the new stuff ;-)

 

by the way, jay43, those US Army films are nice ;-) Do you have some more links to valuable ressources like this one?

 

 

I would suggest if you want to learn more from real Huey and other helicopter pilots you join us at http://1stcavdiv.conceptbb.com/

 

Reading whats being said here just makes me chuckle all this talk of physics and what not really come on.

You are already defying the laws of physics by flying and flying something that has silly little thin blades with an enormous body its completely defying the laws.

 

Due to Newton’s Laws of gravity: “For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction”. In the helicopter this is called the “Torque Effect”.

This why you need to use left pedal but mostly for take off and hover or slow speed flight the faster you go the less pedal you need.

 

I would suggest that those that think its a good idea to pull on the cyclic after they have rolled over try doing an autorotation landing and pull back on the cyclic to see how long it is before its all over.

Edited August 1, 2013 by jay43

[Wokka]

Hi,

 

 

Rather than everyone playing guessing games, .. as most are, .. read this:-

 

In a gentle turn, the position of the nose in relation to the horizon, which is the visual reference for pitch attitude, will remain relatively the same as in straight and level flight. However, as the angle of bank is increased, the attitude of the disc must be altered by backward pressure on the cyclic. This is to compensate for the added load factor imposed by centrifugal force as the turn steepens. The loss in airspeed, or the need for an increase in collective to maintain airspeed, becomes more apparent as the angle of bank increases.

 

Taken from:- http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp9982-exercise6-975.htm

 

 

I've highlighted one part in bold, .. for those that said that back pressure on the cyclic is not used.

 

.. just as you would use back pressure on the Yoke/Control stick of an airplane .. in a coordinated turn. :)

 

 

Some of the comments here are too funny. :megalol:

 

 

Cheers

Tom

 

Backward pressure is something different than pulling back on the cyclic....

 

The reason for back pressure (not pulling back, just exercising a little pressure) is because the helicopter will tend to nose down if you don't.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Wokka

[Wokka]

From the same site;

Guess what happens when applying back pressure on the cyclic?

That's right, you sacrifice airspeed.

 

So in an co-ordinated turn, keeping the same altitude and airspeed you need to;

push cyclic left/right and FORWARD

pull collective to compensate for the extra power requirement

use pedals to keep the ball centered.

The above all at the same time by the way, not after each other.

 

Also, i never said physics failed, only that physics are not at play in the 90 degrees controls input off-set.

 

Hint, study some aerodynamics and follow the input rod (pitch link, whatever other names you wanna use) round the swashplate to see what it does and what happens to the rotor blade at the same time.

 

If you do this you should be able to discover all on your own why there is an 90 degrees conrol input offset.

And also why its an aerodynamic effect that has nothing to do whit physics.

 

Bullshit. Physics are at play. Try playing with a gyroscopic wheel. Like having a bicycle wheel spinning in your one hand, now try giving input with a finger from your other hand. The output is 90 degrees off. Not that many aerodynamics at play with a bicycle wheel.

[jay43]

Backward pressure is something different than pulling back on the cyclic....

 

The reason for back pressure (not pulling back, just exercising a little pressure) is because the helicopter will tend to nose down if you don't.

 

Wrong

[jay43]

Bullshit. Physics are at play. Try playing with a gyroscopic wheel. Like having a bicycle wheel spinning in your one hand, now try giving input with a finger from your other hand. The output is 90 degrees off. Not that many aerodynamics at play with a bicycle wheel.

 

 

Wrong

[jay43]

This is how its done from a real pilot/instructor in our group Flyer knows his stuff.

 

 

To answer your question It’s important to know how the collective and torque meter works in relation to a turn, The collective lever, located on the left side of the pilots seat is use to increase or decrease the altitude of the aircraft. The collective is mechanically linked to the swash plate, located above the transmission on the rotor system mast. There are two part of the swash plate. The upper and lower swash plates. The upper part moves with the rotation of main rotor system, while the lower part remains stationary. When you apply collective, a series of push pull tubes translate this movement to the main rotor blades through the swash plates. The pressure applied is called “torque”.

 

At the beginning of a flight, all helicopters are required to do a “Hover Power” check. To do this, the helicopter is pick-up to a height of five feet and turn to the direction of take-off. When you stabilize the aircraft, in the direction of take-off, look at your torque meter. The value that you see is the value that you will use to fly the aircraft. It is important to know this number because all flight dynamics are calculated off of it. We’ll call it your “Base” reading. For instance if you read 35 psi, that will be the torque setting to fly straight and level at 90 kts. (the normal cruise for a UH-1H), If you want to increase altitude you would add approximately 5 psi to you “base”. This 35 psi reading would give you a 500 feet per minute increase in altitude while maintaining 90 Kts. If you wanted to decrease you altitude you would subtract 5 psi. This will give you a 500 feet per minute decent at 90 Kts.

 

Remember the above numbers because they work with the DCS UH-1H.

 

I bring this to your attention because the use of the collective (and anti-torque rotor) is not necessary in a standard turn. Most pilots new to helicopter flying believe that it is necessary to pull in collective and apply pedals in the direction of the turn as they make a turn. This is not true. Now to your question. When making a standard turn, you have already set you “Base” torque reading (probably around 35 psi). You don’t need to apply collective or anti-torque pedals. Make your turn by banking no more than 10 degree’s, left or right, while maintaining your attitude (your pitch). You should try to keep the wings on your attitude indicator (the large instrument with the wings) on the horizon line. Watch your altitude indicator and keep your attitude level (don’t pitch over or pull back ). It’s important to say at this point…Don’t pump the collective…set it and leave it alone, make only small adjustment to increase or decrease your altitude. Once you have your “Hover Power” torque set, don’t touch the collective…if you pump your collective…your using poor helicopter technique.

 

If you practice doing these procedures, you will turn at a consistent rate of speed and a constant altitude. It takes practice but once you see how to put it all together, it will become second nature.

Edited August 2, 2013 by jay43

[Wokka]

Lol.... torque is absolutely NOT measured at the swashplates or push/pull tubes... so... Wrong.

 

Not all helicopters do a hover power check. Wrong again. Also, the stuff you're saying is like for the basics of the basics of flying. When you're just a tiny bit more experienced, you don't really use those numbers anymore.

 

Your instruction on how to make a turn is basicly total bullshit. You use collective in turns to maintain altitude, if you want it to be a coordinated turn ofcourse.

 

What you're describing might be good for theory, or for a demonstration, or flight lesson number one, but has nothing to do with flying a helicopter properly. Most of it is half, or totally wrong.

 

I'm a helicopter pilot myself, I kind of know what I'm talking about here.

[IonicRipper]

I sense a lot of hostility in your posts, Wokka.

 

Just 'cause you're a pilot doesn't give you the right to talk down at everyone like that.

Edited August 1, 2013 by IonicRipper

[Wokka]

To be complete in my reply, I'll quote and correct the errors and tell you all how it's really done (just for the coordinated turn part).

 

I bring this to your attention because the use of the collective (and anti-torque rotor) is not necessary in a standard turn.

Define standard turn... Standard rate turn? Or just a normal turn? In reality, to fly a coordinated turn you will always need some pedal input to streamline the airframe into the turn, especially sinde you DO need to make collective inputs. If you don't make collective inputs, your helicopter WILL descent. This is very logical because your lift vector becomes less since the thrust vector is now banked into the turn.

Most pilots new to helicopter flying believe that it is neccesaryto pull in collective and apply pedals in the direction of the turn as they make a turn. This is not true.

IS true, it's very simple... if you don't, you'll descent, or you would have to pull back on your cyclic to trade airspeed for altitude, this would not be a coordinated turn.

Now to your question. When making a standard turn, you have already set you “Base” torque reading (probably around 35 psi).

The base torque setting is useless... what if you're flying at 10.000ft? Or ehat if you've burnt off most of your fuel? Your base torque is useless, unless using it in lesson one for the ABSOLUTE newbie. And I mean absolute.

You don’t need to apply collective or anti-torque pedals.

yes you do...

Make your turn by banking no more than 10 degree’s, left or right, while maintaining your attitude (your pitch). You should try to keep the wings on your attitude indicator (the large instrument with the wings) on the horizon line. [Ten degress of bank... that's hardly a turn, at most speeds not even a standard rate turn. Also, how am I supposed to get my wings level on the attitude indicator while banking, lol, you're not making any sense.

Watch your altitude indicator and keep your attitude level (don’t pitch over or pull back ). It’s important to say at this point…Don’t pump the collective…set it and leave it alone, make only small adjustment to increase or decrease your altitude. Once you have your “Hover Power” torque set, don’t touch the collective…if you pump your collective…your using poor helicopter technique.

lmao... you HAVE to use the collective to maintain altitude... what else would you suggest then? Using the pedals??! Come on.............

If you practice doing these procedures, you will turn at a consistent rate of speed and a constant altitude. It takes practice but once you see how to put it all together, it will become second nature.

Not true. You'll lose airspeed in the turn.

[Wokka]

I sense a lot of hostility in your posts, Wokka.

 

Just 'cause you're a pilot doesn't give you the right to talk down at everyone like that.

 

I'm only being direct, sorry if that comes over as hostile. It is however pretty frustrating to see complete noobs trying to tell me I'm wrong which huge erroneous posts full of false statements. What the hell are they thinking? It's like saying cars have square wheels so they can roll.

[jay43]

Lol.... torque is absolutely NOT measured at the swashplates or push/pull tubes... so... Wrong.

 

Not all helicopters do a hover power check. Wrong again. Also, the stuff you're saying is like for the basics of the basics of flying. When you're just a tiny bit more experienced, you don't really use those numbers anymore.

 

Your instruction on how to make a turn is basicly total bullshit. You use collective in turns to maintain altitude, if you want it to be a coordinated turn ofcourse.

 

What you're describing might be good for theory, or for a demonstration, or flight lesson number one, but has nothing to do with flying a helicopter properly. Most of it is half, or totally wrong.

 

I'm a helicopter pilot myself, I kind of know what I'm talking about here.

 

 

US army video link I posted plus Huey manuals and literature I have says it is measured by the swash plates so you are right and all of the official documentation is wrong Hmmmm.

[IonicRipper]

I'm only being direct, sorry if that comes over as hostile. It is however pretty frustrating to see complete noobs trying to tell me I'm wrong which huge erroneous posts full of false statements. What the hell are they thinking? It's like saying cars have square wheels so they can roll.

 

Still, you can definitely get your point across without being totally rude.

[jay43]

I don't think he is being rude I like a good debate even if it does get heated aslong as no one starts with vulgarity its ok.

[jay43]

To be complete in my reply, I'll quote and correct the errors and tell you all how it's really done (just for the coordinated turn part).Define standard turn... Standard rate turn? Or just a normal turn? In reality, to fly a coordinated turn you will always need some pedal input to streamline the airframe into the turn, especially sinde you DO need to make collective inputs. If you don't make collective inputs, your helicopter WILL descent. This is very logical because your lift vector becomes less since the thrust vector is now banked into the turn. IS true, it's very simple... if you don't, you'll descent, or you would have to pull back on your cyclic to trade airspeed for altitude, this would not be a coordinated turn. The base torque setting is useless... what if you're flying at 10.000ft? Or ehat if you've burnt off most of your fuel? Your base torque is useless, unless using it in lesson one for the ABSOLUTE newbie. And I mean absolute.yes you do...

If you practice doing these procedures, you will turn at a consistent rate of speed and a constant altitude. It takes practice but once you see how to put it all together, it will become second nature.

Not true. You'll lose airspeed in the turn.

 

 

So what you say here totally contradicts everything our instructor has told me in the above post by me so if you are and if you are that good come and join us at http://1stcavdiv.conceptbb.com/

[Wokka]

Torque is basicly the power exercised on the twisting of a shaft. Has nothing to do with swashplates or push/pull rods. Can you quote what you've found in official documentation?

[VanjaB]

Torque is basicly the power exercised on the twisting of a shaft. Has nothing to do with swashplates or push/pull rods. Can you quote what you've found in official documentation?

 

This is true. Im not a RL helicopter pilot but I do know a little bit about physics. Torque is also usually refered to as momentum, or moment of force. Basically it is the tendency of an object in motion to retain its motion. Or when there is a constant force applied to an object that is tethered to an axis or fulcrum it is the tendency of that force to rotate this object about this axis. Because all forces are relative, an object will resist any force applied to it with an equal reactive force and because of aerodynamical effects (drag) a larger collective setting will result in a larger torque on the axis.

Edited August 2, 2013 by VanjaB

[VanjaB]

Not true. You'll lose airspeed in the turn.

 

 

So what you say here totally contradicts everything our instructor has told me in the above post by me so if you are and if you are that good come and join us at http://1stcavdiv.conceptbb.com/

 

Well, its rather simple physics basically and yes what he wrote is true. Its also easily reproducible in DCS. Any banking (by any aircraft, not just helicopter aircraft) will result in a loss of speed and/or altitude unless there is an increase of thrust. (Either by pulling on the collective or in the case of fixed wing aircraft by increasing throttle)

[159th_Falcon]

Mind you though, that "instructor" limits us to a max bank angle of 10 Degrees.

 

Could you ask him to explain what happens at 30 degrees bank angle?:music_whistling:

 

10 degrees will take you about 36 hours to fly a 360 degree turn...... so not gonna do that unless its a small course correction

[jay43]

The swashplate consists of two main parts: a stationary swashplate and a rotating swashplate. The stationary (outer) swashplate is mounted on the main rotor mast and is connected to the cyclic and collective controls by a series of pushrods. It is able to tilt in all directions and move vertically. The rotating (inner) swashplate is mounted to the stationary swashplate by means of a bearing and is allowed to rotate with the main rotor mast. An anti-rotation link prevents the inner swash from rotating independently of the blades, which would apply torque to the actuators. The outer swashplate typically has an anti-rotation slider as well to prevent it from rotating. Both swashplates tilt up and down as one unit. The rotating swashplate is connected to the pitch horns by the pitch links. Alternative mechanics to the stationary (outer) swashplate are the hexapod and the universal joint. Swashplates for helicopters having two rotors mounted on the same shaft are much more complex than the single rotor helicopters.

 

If the inner swash plate is turning in unison with the rotor mast then the force torque is applied to the inner swash plate is it not as it is attached to the mast.

 

http://www.helicopterpage.com/html/terms.html

Edited August 2, 2013 by jay43

[159th_Falcon]

 

If the inner swash plate is turning in unison with the rotor mast then the force torque is applied to the inner swash plate is it not as it is attached to the mast.

 

http://www.helicopterpage.com/html/terms.html

No, the swashplate does not transmit any torque, that's what the MRH drive shaft is for.

[Bushmanni]

There's little friction in the bearing opposing the rotation of the inner swashplate and that's all the torque it's experiencing or what the anti-rotation link is applying to it. The rotor on the other hand has some serious drag opposing it's spinning which is the torque the mast is delivering to the rotor. I would think that no helicopter has a torque meter at the swashplates as that just seems silly. Better place would seem to be engine- or rotorshaft.

[159th_Falcon]

Correct, all helicopters i'm familiar whit that have an actual torque meter indicate the torque on the shaft going from the engine into the main gearbox.

[jay43]

This is how its done from a real pilot/instructor in our group Flyer knows his stuff.

 

 

To answer your question It’s important to know how the collective and torque meter works in relation to a turn, The collective lever, located on the left side of the pilots seat is use to increase or decrease the altitude of the aircraft. The collective is mechanically linked to the swash plate, located above the transmission on the rotor system mast. There are two part of the swash plate. The upper and lower swash plates. The upper part moves with the rotation of main rotor system, while the lower part remains stationary. When you apply collective, a series of push pull tubes translate this movement to the main rotor blades through the swash plates. The pressure applied is called “torque”.

 

 

 

At the beginning of a flight, all helicopters are required to do a “Hover Power” check. To do this, the helicopter is pick-up to a height of five feet and turn to the direction of take-off. When you stabilize the aircraft, in the direction of take-off, look at your torque meter. The value that you see is the value that you will use to fly the aircraft. It is important to know this number because all flight dynamics are calculated off of it. We’ll call it your “Base” reading. For instance if you read 35 psi, that will be the torque setting to fly straight and level at 90 kts. (the normal cruise for a UH-1H), If you want to increase altitude you would add approximately 5 psi to you “base”. This 35 psi reading would give you a 500 feet per minute increase in altitude while maintaining 90 Kts. If you wanted to decrease you altitude you would subtract 5 psi. This will give you a 500 feet per minute decent at 90 Kts.

 

Remember the above numbers because they work with the DCS UH-1H.

 

I bring this to your attention because the use of the collective (and anti-torque rotor) is not necessary in a standard turn. Most pilots new to helicopter flying believe that it is necessary to pull in collective and apply pedals in the direction of the turn as they make a turn. This is not true. Now to your question. When making a standard turn, you have already set you “Base” torque reading (probably around 35 psi). You don’t need to apply collective or anti-torque pedals. Make your turn by banking no more than 10 degree’s, left or right, while maintaining your attitude (your pitch). You should try to keep the wings on your attitude indicator (the large instrument with the wings) on the horizon line. Watch your altitude indicator and keep your attitude level (don’t pitch over or pull back ). It’s important to say at this point…Don’t pump the collective…set it and leave it alone, make only small adjustment to increase or decrease your altitude. Once you have your “Hover Power” torque set, don’t touch the collective…if you pump your collective…your using poor helicopter technique.

 

If you practice doing these procedures, you will turn at a consistent rate of speed and a constant altitude. It takes practice but once you see how to put it all together, it will become second nature.

 

Some people need to learn to read especially me and Wokka in the above post pleas highlight exactly where it says that Torque is Measured by the Swash plates nowhere at all.

[jay43]

Lol.... torque is absolutely NOT measured at the swashplates or push/pull tubes... so... Wrong.

 

 

Ok show me in said post where the mention of torque measured at the swash plates please highlight.

 

And while we are on the subject mister pilot why not explain in your words how to make a co-ordinated turn I don't see you posting up the answer to the OP yet you claim to be a helicopter pilot so how about it please enlighten me with your wisdom.

Edited August 2, 2013 by jay43

[159th_Falcon]

Done

 

This is how its done from a real pilot/instructor in our group Flyer knows his stuff.

 

 

To answer your question It’s important to know how the collective and torque meter works in relation to a turn, The collective lever, located on the left side of the pilots seat is use to increase or decrease the altitude of the aircraft. The collective is mechanically linked to the swash plate, located above the transmission on the rotor system mast. There are two part of the swash plate. The upper and lower swash plates. The upper part moves with the rotation of main rotor system, while the lower part remains stationary. When you apply collective, a series of push pull tubes translate this movement to the main rotor blades through the swash plates. The pressure applied is called “torque”.

At the beginning of a flight, all helicopters are required to do a “Hover Power” check. To do this, the helicopter is pick-up to a height of five feet and turn to the direction of take-off. When you stabilize the aircraft, in the direction of take-off, look at your torque meter. The value that you see is the value that you will use to fly the aircraft. It is important to know this number because all flight dynamics are calculated off of it. We’ll call it your “Base” reading. For instance if you read 35 psi, that will be the torque setting to fly straight and level at 90 kts. (the normal cruise for a UH-1H), If you want to increase altitude you would add approximately 5 psi to you “base”. This 35 psi reading would give you a 500 feet per minute increase in altitude while maintaining 90 Kts. If you wanted to decrease you altitude you would subtract 5 psi. This will give you a 500 feet per minute decent at 90 Kts.

 

Remember the above numbers because they work with the DCS UH-1H.

 

I bring this to your attention because the use of the collective (and anti-torque rotor) is not necessary in a standard turn. Most pilots new to helicopter flying believe that it is necessary to pull in collective and apply pedals in the direction of the turn as they make a turn. This is not true. Now to your question. When making a standard turn, you have already set you “Base” torque reading (probably around 35 psi). You don’t need to apply collective or anti-torque pedals. Make your turn by banking no more than 10 degree’s, left or right, while maintaining your attitude (your pitch). You should try to keep the wings on your attitude indicator (the large instrument with the wings) on the horizon line. Watch your altitude indicator and keep your attitude level (don’t pitch over or pull back ). It’s important to say at this point…Don’t pump the collective…set it and leave it alone, make only small adjustment to increase or decrease your altitude. Once you have your “Hover Power” torque set, don’t touch the collective…if you pump your collective…your using poor helicopter technique.

 

If you practice doing these procedures, you will turn at a consistent rate of speed and a constant altitude. It takes practice but once you see how to put it all together, it will become second nature.