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Posts posted by AvroLanc

  1. 6 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

    From my understanding, LOBL means the target is being lazed by the aircraft carrying it. Part of the procedure to fire it is for the Missile to confirm it is locked on the laser signal. When fired the missile flies directly to the laser signal on the painted target, thus the description DIR.

    LOAL is mainly used for attacking a target painted by a foreign source (eg: another Apache or a JTAC). It can also be used if there is too much signal scatter, because for example a tree branch is in the way or the surface of the vehicle is to obtuse and cluttered with stuff.

    Putting the missile into LOAL TRAJ HI tells the missile to take a high flight path, but look for a scattered or possibly weak signal while in flight (I read that a laser source with more than 2° deflection from the missile is considered a scattered signal).

    Your half right. There’s LOBL and LOAL, and Autonomous (self) and Remote (third party) designation.  You can have any combination of those 4.  But there’s also 3 different LOAL trajectory DIR/LO/HI. LO and HI work different to DIR in the way it directs you to aim nose, via constraints box. 
    Of these LO and HI would work best for third party designation, but don’t technically have to be. DIR would work best for autonomous LOAL, but again not in all cases etc etc. 

    Many ways to skin a cat.

    Your comment about a scattered signal is partially correct, you’ll get a BACKSCATTER message and launching in LOAL DIR is one way to overcome it. 

  2. 13 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

    No, I never said any such thing.

    "Channel 1 is set to R, 2 to Q, 3 to P, and 4 to N. Then I change LST and LRFD to R"

    "I set Q to 1681"

    "I have (sic.) George permission to fire and he confirmed, but no fire, repeat, repeat, repeat, no firing."

    Until I changed 1 back to A it was on R. While ! was on R LST and LRFD were on R as well.

    I have only used LOBL, which is automatically DIR.


    OK, but there’s lots of variables at play here and lots to get pick apart. 

    I’ve been using the Q, L, P codes etc with success. If your JTAC was illuminating properly and the missile was seeing the laser you should have got a PRI CHANNEL TRACK message and large LOBL box. If you didn’t then maybe you didn’t have LOS or there was an issue with the actual frequency not matching.
    Unless maybe you were intending to shoot LOAL and weren’t pointing the aircraft in the targets direction, so the missile never picked up the laser spot because of that? 

    DIR is not LOBL. DIR is a LOAL trajectory that is a separate thing. 

  3. 49 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

    Thanks for the reply, admiki.

    Hellfires were only in LOBL.

    LST and LRFD were in R, the same as the primary channel.

    If I take charge of the Hellfires and set them to LOAL, how do I tell George to laze the target, and how can I confirm that He's actually doing it?

    You said you fired Hellfire with PRI Chan Q and your LRFD was on R? Well that’s the problem, if so. Or was it a JTAC illuminating with Q? Did you get a large solid LOBL box and PRI CHANNEL TRK before firing?

    Hellfire have PRI and ALT channel. At the moment the ALT chan serves absolutely no purpose, until we get the RIPPLE launch mode, at which point it will. (The system will only code and fire the PRI channel anyway, even with Ripple - it just swaps the PRI and ALT codes after the current PRI is launched.)

    George can only use DIR LOAL mode effectively at the moment. He will start lasing when he sees the LASE 1 TARGET message on the HAD. He can’t use LO or HI properly because you can’t instruct him to set an appropriate Acquisition Source from the pilot position yet. 

  4. The G-Meter on the Flight Page only records min/max G ‘telltales’ values when on/viewing 'SET' sub-page. When viewing the normal FLIGHT PAGE the G-Meter (which itself is on SET subpage), does not record the G. When on/viewing the SET sub page, the G meter behaves as it should - recording G ‘telltales’ and being re-settable - otherwise no Max and Min G is recorded 'behind the scenes' by system.

    See track. Thanks.

    FLT PAGE SET G Reset Bug.trk

  5. 6 hours ago, nick10 said:

    I don’t know why Ed can’t release a guide as simple and user friendly on release. 

    chuck does gods work. 

    ED's manual is very easy to use and has everything you need to know. Combined with the various vids out there, you've got everything.

    I not sure what Chuck's guide could add here. The Apache workflow can be very complicated, there's no way round that. Even using Chuck's excellent pictorial format, alot of the concepts will be difficult to explain there as well.

  6. On 3/20/2022 at 1:52 PM, Rongor said:

    HMD - is set by default

    FCR - not (yet) implemented

    TADS -  not available for PLT as per the manual

    link -  no idea what this does, doesn't show any obvious effect

    LINK will slave TADS to FCR NTS (next target to shoot) target when FCR is sight, and will slave FCR centreline to TADS los when TADS is the sight. 

    • Like 1
  7. 54 minutes ago, Fromthedeep said:

    It's impossible to know what ED want to implement and what they don't want to. Unless they explictly state that something is eventually going to be implemented we cannot assume that it will be. 

    Even that logic isn’t the most reliable…. Unless it turns up on your hard drive one day in a Open Beta update, you never really know.

    • Like 1
  8. The TOF uses the range value you have set when firing. If you’re doing a LOAL shot and maybe have a NAV Nx.x range set, and the target is not at the same range, then you might just get a big TOF difference. 

    Smaller differences may be explained by temperature variation from the standard 15C. As in real life it appears that hotter outside temps will give shorter actual missile flight times and vice versa for colder temps. From my testing it appears ED have modelled this, but not the TOF calculation within the system to correct for it. Does the real Apache even correct for different temps? I don’t know. 

  9. 10 minutes ago, admiki said:

    If you are doing LOAL and masking behind a cover, you can't be firing the laser all the time, missile will pick laser reflection off your cover and just go for it.


    LOAL HI and LO can be used from behind cover even when using autonomous (self) lasing….you just need to get good at boping/poping up to unmask at the correct time.

    You can do an initial unmask to observe and store targets. Remask and prepare the shot, actually shoot in LO/HI from behind cover and then use the TOF counter to command your pilot to bop up to resight the target with at least 8-10 seconds of lase time. Works best at 5-8km. Challenging and fun. 
    Obviously used when in high threat area, when you can’t sit there for 30-40 seconds in direct LOS the whole time. 

  10. Yeah, this has definitely changed since the patch. George is now de-slaving after slaving to FXD. It’s not a systems bug, more of a change in George SOP. Might be intentional. 

    Personally I prefer the old way he kept TADS slaved to FXD, until commanded to search. It might change again, or serve a useful purpose when George learns to scan on his own later. 

  11. It doesn’t matter at all which acquisition source you select. 

    The important thing is the SIGHT, in this case for the pilot P-HMD is the only option. (FCR will come later). 
    Weapons are aimed using SIGHTS. You only need to worry about acquisition sources as a way of receiving cueing or slaving that SIGHT to a location of interest. 
    The selected ACQ source can never be the same as the selected SIGHT. So P-HMD can never have PHS as Acq source.
    When FCR is a possible sight, PLT could then choose PHS as ACQ. But that’s for later, as a way of aiming the radar centreline with your head. Probably little used in comparison with other ways of changing radar centreline, but hey. 

    • Like 3
  12. I wonder if we can get an official response to the LINES / AREAS/ SHOT features?

    Are they planned for later, adding LINE and AREAS might be possible with the simple ME 'target point' feature that many third party modules use, ED's Ka-50 uses these as well? They could represent the 4 corners of an engagement area or points on a line..... avoiding the need to wait for a full DTC simulation / drawing tool. Maybe the Editor drawing tool could play a role here as well.

    Adding the SHOT locations and TSD crosses/symbols should be an even simpler task as well. Dunno, just curious, planned or not?


  13. 1 hour ago, imacken said:

    On another note, what is the difference between 1st and 2nd weapon trigger?  Weapons seem to fire on the 1st for me. Can't remember using 2nd at all.  Having said that, I'm just learning weapons!

    All of the weapons have a set of both ‘performance’ inhibits and ‘safety’ inhibits. These are seen as messages in the ‘weapon inhibit’ field on the HAD. I can’t off the top of my head, separate and give examples right now, but…. The first trigger detent is the normal fire mode, with the second detent able to override the ‘performance’ inhibit, when appropriate. The safety inhibit can never be overridden. 

    • Like 1
  14. 18 minutes ago, FalcoGer said:

    It needs at least a bearing and elevation though, which, when combined with the terrain database would be the same as a bearing and range.

    Not all ACQ sources need MSL elevation. Many can just be Line of Sight. Azimuth and Elevation (by elevation in this case, I mean just angles not a height/altitude). 

  15. No it doesn’t triangulate or provide a passive range at all. 

    It’s a more sensitive RWR. RFI can detect a higher frequency range than a RWR and is more likely to make the correct classification. It also provides a more accurate azimuth bearing than the RLWR. 

    When RFI is the ACQ source it slaves the sight to the detected bearing in azimuth and the local horizontal in elevation. You need take over and search visually, with TADS from there. 

    The cued search function slaves the FCR to the detected bearing and automatically starts a scan. I imagine that if an air defence vehicle target (FCR can classify these) is found along that azimuth it tries to correlate the two detections into one target symbol. 

    Bear in mind the FCR only has like a 8km max range, so this doesn’t turn the Apache into a SEAD machine or anything. 

    Just now, AvroLanc said:

    No it doesn’t triangulate or provide a passive range at all. 

    It’s a more sensitive RWR. RFI can detect a higher frequency range than a RWR and is more likely to make the correct classification. It also provides a more accurate azimuth bearing than the RLWR. 

    When RFI is the ACQ source it slaves the sight to the detected bearing in azimuth and the local horizontal in elevation. You need take over and search visually, with TADS from there. 

    The cued search function slaves the FCR to the detected bearing and automatically starts a scan. I imagine that if an air defence vehicle target (FCR can classify these) is found along that azimuth it tries to correlate the two detections into one target symbol/contact, with range.

    Bear in mind the FCR only has like a 8km max range, so this doesn’t turn the Apache into a SEAD machine or anything. 


    • Like 2
  16. 56 minutes ago, Frederf said:

    Thank you for this.

    Does DIR/LO/HI change the flight profile for LOBL launches or are all LOBL launches the same flight profile regardless of trajectory setting? Does an e.g. LOBL/HI fired missile fly to a particular point if LOBL laser is lost mid flight?

    LOAL/DIR assumes the currently active sight point (HMD, TADS, etc?) as the missile launch target and LOAL/LOHI assumes the ACQ point?

    Is there any warning or indication  that one is inside the minimum practical range for shaped trajectories?

    No, when the missile detects the correct laser code, before launch, it goes LOBL and follows the totally unique LOBL trajectory. The LOBL traj is unrelated to any of the 3 LOAL paths. 

    The K missiles (SAL 2) allow the seeker to reacquire the laser spot but it doesn’t change or revert the trajectory or anything like that. 
    SAL 1 seekers can’t reacquire the laser spot, if ED hopefully add those later to add variety.

    Correct DIR uses TADS los and LO/HI use ACQ to tell it where to go.

    You just need to remember the min ranges as best as possible and respect them. I think. 

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  17. 1 hour ago, Marklar said:

    As of today George AI won't store target location so you have no waypoint to select as ACQ SOURCE. Also how do you instruct George to start lasing after you launch a missile in LOAL mode?


    When in LOAL DIR George will lase after he fires. He will wait until he gets the LASE 1 TARGET message. 

    When in HI or LO, I swap to the front seat and play from there. In theory you could swap back to rear after making sure the ACQ SOURCE is set, but I stay there for the whole engagement. 

  18. I'm not an SME or anything, but one aspect of Hellfire employment that needs clarifying is the understanding of the When and Why of Hellfire LOBL/DIR/LO/HI modes. I see a lot of online streams and tutorials that either suffer misconceptions or inaccurate teaching of these modes. 

    The first thing that needs emphasizing - There are four possible Hellfire trajectories; and they all work nicely in DCS:

    LOBL Trajectory

    LOAL DIR Trajectory

    LOAL LO Trajectory

    LOAL HI Trajectory

    I think the one overriding misconception people have is that DIR is the 'LOBL mode'. This is not the case. DIR is a LOAL configuration and has it's own trajectory. The system will default to LOBL whenever the missile seeker detects laser energy on the same CODE it's set for. I.e you don't need to be in DIR to get a LOBL launch...just lase with the matching code and you'll get LOBL/Large constraints box. The missile will then adopt it's own unique flight path trajectory that is different from either DIR/LO/HI. I.e You can get LOBL with LO/HI traj set as well.

    So what is DIR trajectory? It's used for a LOAL launch, and as the name implies the missile follows a more direct / flatter flight path to the target. This has some advantages. With DIR NORM or DIR MAN (and later RIPPLE), with empty HAD weapon inhibit field, just pull the trigger and fire. You'll get a LASE 1 TARGET message in the HAD, and you should lase at about this point. Otherwise it's the same as LOBL in that the constraints box is driven by the TADS Line of Sight (you don't need to worry about an ACQ Source point like in LO and HI). For this reason DIR is very useful. 

    Advantages of LOAL DIR:

    • Most direct and flattest missile flight path, means marginally shorter TOF.
    • Approx 300-400' max missile height above own aircraft, even at max 7-8km range, compared to approx 200-600' max height for LOBL at same range (but LOBL traj is range dependent).

    When to use DIR:

    • When you have a direct LOS to the target
    • Low trajectory means it can be used on a low cloud base day (I don't think DCS models laser spot loss in clouds yet)
    • The when BACKSCATTER message prevents a launch in LOBL, stop lasing and fire LOAL. (BACKSCATTER message is in and works, but again I don't think DCS is modelling false lock ons, not sure what's being simulated exactly)
    • If the target has a Laser Warning System, the delayed lase gives them less time to react, compared to LOBL. (Again, DCS doesn't really model this yet for AI)


    When to use LOAL LO and HI:

    LO and HI should only really be used when you're sitting behind a mask or don't otherwise have a direct Line of Sight on the target. LO should have a max 800-1000' height and HI 1400-1600' feet max height.(Approx DCS testing/experiments). So choose one depending on the size of the hill or mask you're hiding behind.

    You shouldn't really ever be using LO or HI if you can see the target directly. There's no advantage. Some talk of a higher/more vertical impact angle for top attack. But if you look at the actual impact angle in 3D, it's not really that different, especially at longer ranges. HI doesn't turn Hellfire into some kind of next gen top attack weapon, it's not like it's coming in near vertical or anything.

    • Use when you don't have a direct LOS, you're hiding behind a mask.
    • The target location is stored as the current ACQ SOURCE.
    • You can lase either remotely, in which case you don't need to expose yourself or unmask at all....use another player or the AI JTAC to lase.
    • Or you can lase autonomously, by firing behind the mask and timing a bob-up maneuver to bob-up 50-70ft and lase with a good 10 seconds of lase time on target. Use the HF TOF and LASE 1 TARGET messages to judge it. Even using George AI works using this method. And it's satisfying.
    • If you get good you can fire 2 missiles behind the mask and lase each in turn. Just slew carefully.

    Disadvantage of LO/HI:

    • All of the trajectories have minimum ranges; LOBL about 500m, DIR about 1500m, LO about 2000m, HI about 3000m. (Approx DCS testing/experiments)
    • This is why you see many players using HI and complaining that the missile never hits. It just overflies without picking up the laser spot, even with a fairly early lase. Use LO and HI at longer ranges and lase early on, when you get the LASE 1 TARGET message. 


    When to use LOBL:

    When none of the other considerations apply and you just need to shoot with a direct LOS, high cloud ceiling, and want the easy life. Low threat, low complexity.

    If any SME's want to tell me that's all wrong then please please do, as I say I don't really come with any real experience, just enthusiasm. Note that all the heights and ranges I've stated are observations from within DCS itself.


    • Like 22
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  19. Be aware that’s there’s a bug with the TEDAC PNVS button. It does not  correctly show PNVS or NVS video underneath the symbology. With PNVS selected it continues to show TADS video underneath the flight symbology, regardless of the NVS OFF/NORM/FIXED mode. This is wrong. 

    I did a report, but no tag yet. 

  20. You can't view the laser range except through the TADS video page.

    But, if you've stored the target as a CM or WP, you can set that as your ACQ Source and you'll get a NAV rage Nx.x in the HAD. It helps. Of course if you've stepped to front seat, you can lase and store a T point and use that for later for Nav range when you swap back to pilot.

    • Thanks 2
  21. 5 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

    Am I right to say that for the current laser Hellfires, the 'sight' can only be the TADS since lasing is involved when firing is involved? I mean HMD as 'sight' is only meaningful for guns and rockets right?

    In the most practical sense, yes. The TADS and Laser can only be controlled by the front seater, and yeah autonomous Hellfire launches need the TADS as the sight. 

    However….. it is possible for the pilot to WAS up MSL and fire them, with HMD as SIGHT. The likely use case is a remote LOAL LO/HI traj shot against a target illuminated by a third party. As pilot set your ACQ SOURCE to the JTAC provided grid location and set your traj to LO or HI. Get within constraints and fire. You get Hellfire time of flight and the usual messages in the left part of the HAD. Pretty useful for remote shots, without need to move to the front seat, and pretty satisfying to shoot a target from a defilade which you can’t even see. 

    • Like 4
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